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nick007
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29 May 2018, 5:22 am

jon85 wrote:
What worries me, and slightly confuses me, is if I am autistic, then how do I tell if I really have GID... is GID even real if it can be identified as a symptom of autism?

Did i complete my transition for nothing? Are my true feelings about my gender invalid?
I think of GID as a comorbid of autism. Even if it is a common symptom of autism, you are still the way you are so you did NOT transition for nothing. Transitioning was a way of adopting to that symptom of autism better.


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aspiesavant
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16 Jun 2018, 3:24 pm

Simon Baron-Cohen has argued for quite some time that Autism is a form of hypermasculinity.

A fairly recent study suggests that women with more male-like brain anatomy three times more likely to be diagnosed with autism.

Thus, it's definitely not uncommon for a woman with an Autism diagnosis to be perceived as more masculine than other women and for her to relate more with her masculine side than to her feminine side.

Does that mean you should consider yourself a man, take male hormones to change your physical appearance and have people refer to you as a man from now on? I'm not convinced that is a correct response to that. Maybe you're just a woman who is more masculine than typical woman. And maybe that's something that's perfectly normal and no reason to start considering yourself a man.



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16 Jun 2018, 3:38 pm

aspiesavant wrote:
Simon Baron-Cohen has argued for quite some time that Autism is a form of hypermasculinity.

A fairly recent study suggests that women with more male-like brain anatomy three times more likely to be diagnosed with autism.

Thus, it's definitely not uncommon for a woman with an Autism diagnosis to be perceived as more masculine than other women and for her to relate more with her masculine side than to her feminine side.

Does that mean you should consider yourself a man, take male hormones to change your physical appearance and have people refer to you as a man from now on? I'm not convinced that is a correct response to that. Maybe you're just a woman who is more masculine than typical woman. And maybe that's something that's perfectly normal and no reason to start considering yourself a man.

Being a trans man isn't just being masculine. Trans people typically feel dysphoria with their bodies and with being referred to as their birth gender. It's not something that can be fixed with just dressing masculine.



aspiesavant
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16 Jun 2018, 5:24 pm

TheAP wrote:
Being a trans man isn't just being masculine. Trans people typically feel dysphoria with their bodies and with being referred to as their birth gender. It's not something that can be fixed with just dressing masculine.


Nor is it something that can be fixed by getting hormonal treatment or undergoing a sex change operation :

Quote:
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

source


Quote:
There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

The Guardian asked Arif to conduct the review after speaking to several people who regret changing gender or believe that the medical care they received failed to prepare them for their new lives. They explain why they are unhappy with their sex change and how they cope with the consequences in the Weekend magazine tomorrow (July 31).

Chris Hyde, the director of Arif, said: "There is a huge uncertainty over whether changing someone's sex is a good or a bad thing. While no doubt great care is taken to ensure that appropriate patients undergo gender reassignment, there's still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatised - often to the point of committing suicide."

Arif, which advises the NHS in the West Midlands about the evidence base of healthcare treatments, found that most of the medical research on gender reassignment was poorly designed, which skewed the results to suggest that sex change operations are beneficial.

source


Quote:
In order to achieve a healthy and mentally stable state, a trans person must have their gender and sex as closely aligned as possible. Why, though, does this require the physical sex to change in order to align to the perceived gender? Why shouldn’t the perceived gender be what changes?

It seems far more reasonable — and medically ethical and sound — to achieve this homeostasis by changing gender to match to the already established sex. A woman taking testosterone must continue taking testosterone, or else her desired masculine secondary sex characteristics will fade away (though if she has removed her ovaries, her body will not be able to produce estrogen and bring her female sex characteristics back). As many trans men prefer to keep their reproductive organs and become pregnant, this risk is even higher. The body’s aggressive and persistent attempt to return to a state, despite medical interventions to override that state, indicates that the state is “natural.” The body is being medically forced to adapt to conditions it is unsuited to experience.

If the ideal state is one of homeostasis, in which gender and sex are the same, then why would trans people dedicate their entire lives to forcing their bodies to adapt to conditions they cannot maintain on their own? It seems far more reasonable to recognize that the physical sex at birth is the standard by which internal perception should be aligned. Logically, wouldn’t a transgender person who suffers due to misalignment of gender and sex be equally as happy aligning his gender to his sex if the end result is that gender and sex are the same? Why is the only acceptable option to force, through dramatic physical deformity, the body to adapt to the mind instead?

source



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17 Jun 2018, 2:31 am

That's some massive cherry picking sources in order to justify hate by username aspiesavant.



aspiesavant
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17 Jun 2018, 4:29 am

Nonsense wrote:
That's some massive cherry picking sources in order to justify hate by username aspiesavant.


Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct.

It should be obvious that the best way to match biology and a social construct would be to modify the social construct and not biology.

How is that even controversial?

It sure isn't hate.



Nonsense
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17 Jun 2018, 5:31 am

aspiesavant wrote:
Nonsense wrote:
That's some massive cherry picking sources in order to justify hate by username aspiesavant.


Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct.

It should be obvious that the best way to match biology and a social construct would be to modify the social construct and not biology.

How is that even controversial?

It sure isn't hate.

Either you are genuinely interested in well being of other people or you are not, and I won't waste any more time to latter group even if they hide behind veil of "science".



aspiesavant
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17 Jun 2018, 5:50 am

Nonsense wrote:
Either you are genuinely interested in well being of other people or you are not, and I won't waste any more time to latter group even if they hide behind veil of "science".


If you are genuinely interested in well being of yourself and/or other people, you should care about what science has to say about it!

If adjusting your gender to your sex is likely to make you happier than adjusting your sex to your gender, why wouldn't
you want to know about this before you do something as drastically (and partly irreversible) as changing your sex?



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17 Jun 2018, 5:57 am

aspiesavant wrote:
Nonsense wrote:
Either you are genuinely interested in well being of other people or you are not, and I won't waste any more time to latter group even if they hide behind veil of "science".


If you are genuinely interested in well being of yourself and/or other people, you should care about what science has to say about it!

If adjusting your gender to your sex is likely to make you happier than adjusting your sex to your gender, why wouldn't
you want to know about this before you do something as drastically (and partly irreversible) as changing your sex?

That's not what science says, only your disgusting ideas hidden behind veil of "science", and if you actually cared, you would know it by now. I know your kind.



aspiesavant
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17 Jun 2018, 6:02 am

Nonsense wrote:
That's not what science says, only your disgusting ideas hidden behind veil of "science", and if you actually cared, you would know it by now. I know your kind.


How ironic of you to accuse me of hate for stating the obvious while your own words are flowing over with hate and prejudice towards anyone who does not go along with your delusional thinking.

Projecting much?!



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17 Jun 2018, 6:05 am

aspiesavant wrote:
Nonsense wrote:
That's not what science says, only your disgusting ideas hidden behind veil of "science", and if you actually cared, you would know it by now. I know your kind.


How ironic of you to accuse me of hate for stating the obvious while your own words are flowing over with hate and prejudice towards anyone who does not go along with your delusional thinking.

Projecting much?!

Hating those who want nothing good for you is a healthy response.



aspiesavant
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17 Jun 2018, 12:34 pm

Nonsense wrote:
Hating those who want nothing good for you is a healthy response.


How is hate EVER a healthy response?

What makes you think that I don't want what's good for you?

And what makes you so certain that mutilating your body is a healthy response to gender dysphoria when there's ample examples of people feeling more miserable after than before their surgery (with some even changing their sex back to their original sex)?



jon85
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18 Jun 2018, 7:11 am

aspiesavant wrote:

And what makes you so certain that mutilating your body is a healthy response to gender dysphoria when there's ample examples of people feeling more miserable after than before their surgery (with some even changing their sex back to their original sex)?


Here's my 2 cents.

Living with gender dysphoria is a hard, horrible internal conflict. When someone with GID is told they can have a sex change, it's like all christmas's come at once, and when you are presented with something that you want so badly, a lot of transgenders will rush to complete the process of switching gender because the goal of wanting to feel 'whole' and happy can not come too soon. Most of those that rush through this process won't have the time to sit and think about the journey.

It has taken me a full 10 years from my first appointment at the gender clinic to being fully signed off from the therapist and surgeon. I would have liked to have completed the process much sooner, but because i didn't, and that it's taken this long has given me ample time to understand what I have truly wanted. I am on the other side now and I have never been happier with myself, more content with my body. I'd be lying if i said i didn't worry that i was on the right path during the whole process, but I pushed myself through that, keeping my end goal i sight, rather than focusing on the uncomfortableness of the surgeries. I will never go back.

But each person is individual, with varying levels of needs. No one should be judging anyone by what that person wants, that's up to them, not yourselves. And in response to having the gender aligned to sex over sex aligned to gender, my personal opinion is thats bullc. 21 years I spent trying to do just that and it was no way to live. Depressed, confused, trapped, supressed... no one should be made to live like that. One's gender is a rule that cannot be changed as easily as one can change sex.


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18 Jun 2018, 8:19 am

Gender is a social construct. Sex is biology.

As a rule, it's much easier to change a social construct (no matter how deeply ingrained it is in your psyche) than it is to change your biology.

Quote:
Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition where you are dissatisfied with your gender.

Nobody's ever born a transgender. They're manufactured as a result of something, a developmental childhood issue that has yet to be determined for many people.

In retrospect, I can see that changing genders, quite frankly is just pure foolishness.

— Walt Heyer, after changing his sex from male to female and then back to male



jon85
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18 Jun 2018, 8:23 am

aspiesavant wrote:
Gender is a social construct. Sex is biology.

As a rule, it's much easier to change a social construct (no matter how deeply ingrained it is in your psyche) than it is to change your biology.

Quote:
Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition where you are dissatisfied with your gender.

Nobody's ever born a transgender. They're manufactured as a result of something, a developmental childhood issue that has yet to be determined for many people.

In retrospect, I can see that changing genders, quite frankly is just pure foolishness.

— Walt Heyer, after changing his sex from male to female and then back to male



Are you transgender?

Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure this whole 'change a social construct' as opposed to changing biology sounds a whole lot like the 'institutes' that were available some 30 years or so ago. And they were inhumane. Forcing people to adhere to what they considered a social 'norm' was and believing a transgender or gay person was clinically insane and they definitely were not treat with respect. I'm unsure if you intend it to mean it that way, but what you describe is most definitely the same thing. An outdated approach which most certainly does not belong in today's world.

And the fact that people are not born transgender? If you're not transgender then you can't possibly understand. People ARE born that way, it is scientifically proven that it is a chemical development that occurs in the brain during a fetus time in the womb.

Quote:
In retrospect, I can see that changing genders, quite frankly is just pure foolishness.


You have absolutely no clue. I was ready to respect your opinion, but your ignorance to see actual facts has made me change my mind.


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aspiesavant
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18 Jun 2018, 8:33 am

jon85 wrote:
Are you transgender?


No. So no, I do not know from personal experience what it means to feel like my sex and my gender don't match.

I do know from experience, however, how easily the mind can trick us. I do from experience know how it can fool us into thinking we want something that's really bad for us. I've seen it among the people I love, and I've seen it in myself.

The key to knowing yourself is to understand that you can never trust your own emotions.

And, unfortunately, knowing what's good for you and what's bad for you is an increasingly rare capability, because we're ever more taught to blindly abide to every emotion. The art of reason is becoming a lost art!

jon85 wrote:
And they were inhumane. Forcing people to adhere to what they considered a social 'norm' was and believing a transgender or gay person was clinically insane and they definitely were not treat with respect.


As an Autistic person, I know what it is to deviate from the norm.

By no means am I promoting the idea that we must force people into a mold they simply don't fit in.

jon85 wrote:
And the fact that people are not born transgender? If you're not transgender then you can't possibly understand.


I was quoting someone who changed his gender twice.

jon85 wrote:
People ARE born that way, it is scientifically proven that it is a chemical development that occurs in the brain during a fetus time in the womb.


So what if it is? I chemical developments pre-birth are the cause, maybe chemical treatments during your lifetime are sufficient to treat it.

jon85 wrote:
You have absolutely no clue. I was ready to respect your opinion, but your ignorance to see actual facts has made me change my mind.


Again, I was quoting someone who changed his gender twice.



Last edited by aspiesavant on 18 Jun 2018, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.