Page 1 of 2 [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

14 Jun 2018, 8:37 pm

I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

14 Jun 2018, 8:47 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
No, it's a linguistic sleight-of-hand shifting the burden of proof. It's the difference between "I don't believe in God" and "I believe that there is no God". Atheists generally hold to the former view on the basis of an absence of evidence, but proponents of deities like to strawman atheists as holding the latter view and demanding they present their "evidence that God does not exist".

Oh, ok. I get it.

My theistic views have evolved somewhat. I used to assume the same and would get caught in the whole burden of proof trap. It took me a while to figure out how atheists avoided burden of proof. I learned other ways to attack atheism with varying degrees of success that I found satisfying for the most part. My first instinct, for example, was to quote Sagan: “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Except I don’t accept the whole “no evidence” premise. But as I paid more attention, I began to notice a few other assumptions that made “classical” arguments more time-consuming than they’re worth. So I don’t bother with evidence that’s only going to be dismissed with confirmation and preference biases and goalpost moving. I don’t bother with mathematical and logical proofs and ENDLESS arguments and counter arguments and counter-counter arguments and ... The way I deal with burden of proof is if someone wants to convince me that my beliefs are false, it’s their job to accept my premise and tear it apart. I never seem to have many takers on that. But I understand perfectly well why that is: nobody likes being on the losing side of an argument. Actual evidence and logic have very little to do with it.

As far as being more logical goes, people will tend to pick and choose evidence and arguments that support their own preferences. So, yeah, it’s “logical,” but you’ve kinda started with a conclusion first, worked backwards towards your premises, and end up assuming what you’re trying to prove. It looks flawlessly logical and elegant, but on close inspection it’s anything but. I think being “logical” is something we lay claim to due to our unique Boolean worldview, at least for some of us. The underlying assumptions make our positions inherently irrational, a fact we miss entirely or prefer to ignore.

The REAL conclusions are never rational ones, but that’s ok because they reveal the story of who we really are. A story about how your experience with smoke machines, strobe lights, lasers, and loud music is much more revealing than your ability to dismantle the kalam argument (good luck with that, btw). I am unable to deny my own experiences of the divine, so accepting the premise there is no God is an exercise in delusion. But more than that, it’s much more compelling than pondering some mysterious “Uncaused Cause.”



underwater
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Sep 2015
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,904
Location: Hibernating

15 Jun 2018, 1:39 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


I don't think I believe this. It's true some autistics have minimal imagination, but this is true of many neuroptypicals as well. This is one of those traits that some consider to be typically autistic, which I don't believe. You have lots of autistics with lots of imagination, there are quite a few arty ones. I think the idea that autistics don't have imagination stems from the fact that autistics tend to have extreme traits.....so you will find both autistics who have minimal imagination and the ones who practically live in a fantasy land in their head, but the ones with little imagination are perhaps more noticeable.

Concrete thinking I agree with, but that's not the same thing as having little imagination.

And I don't want to start a huge discussion about the existence of various gods, because I think it's a waste of time, but 'belief in atheism'? Seriously? I hope you see the oxymoron you created.

I don't care about gods, but I care about logic, when I'm able :wink:


_________________
I sometimes leave conversations and return after a long time. I am sorry about it, but I need a lot of time to think about it when I am not sure how I feel.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,148
Location: temperate zone

15 Jun 2018, 2:31 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


How can autistics be X, because of Y, when Y is NOT even a trait of autism?

Lack of imagination and so and so are not traits of autism. So how could a trait that autistics don't have cause them to do anything?

(SOME auitistics, like a child a friend knew, do have a total lack of ability to even conceive of "money" as a concept.But other autistics are the opposite, and too wrapped up in inner thoughts and fantasies.).



LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

15 Jun 2018, 2:50 am

naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


How can autistics be X, because of Y, when Y is NOT even a trait of autism?

Lack of imagination and so and so are not traits of autism. So how could a trait that autistics don't have cause them to do anything?

(SOME auitistics, like a child a friend knew, do have a total lack of ability to even conceive of "money" as a concept.But other autistics are the opposite, and too wrapped up in inner thoughts and fantasies.).

"Concrete thinking" is a trait of autism.

As I said earlier, search google.

Concrete Thinking in Children with Asperger's and HFA
http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2013/06 ... -with.html

The idea is that ASD people might think more about details, and be less effective at thinking abstractly.


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,148
Location: temperate zone

15 Jun 2018, 3:10 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


How can autistics be X, because of Y, when Y is NOT even a trait of autism?

Lack of imagination and so and so are not traits of autism. So how could a trait that autistics don't have cause them to do anything?

(SOME auitistics, like a child a friend knew, do have a total lack of ability to even conceive of "money" as a concept.But other autistics are the opposite, and too wrapped up in inner thoughts and fantasies.).

"Concrete thinking" is a trait of autism.

As I said earlier, search google.

Concrete Thinking in Children with Asperger's and HFA
http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2013/06 ... -with.html

The idea is that ASD people might think more about details, and less effectively thinking abstractly.


We are all aware that there are ignorant dumb clucks who say erroneous stuff on websites.
Just because its on a website doesn't mean anything.

What makes that site so authoritative?

Does the DSM list lack of abstract thinking as a trait of autism?



LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

15 Jun 2018, 4:01 am

naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
I read about this a few years ago.

A believe in GOD requires imaginative, abstract thinking.

A doctor suggested that ASD "concrete thinking" is possibly the cause of beliefs in atheism, since it may limit such imaginative, abstract thinking in favor of concrete thinking.

(Search google "Autism concrete thinking")


How can autistics be X, because of Y, when Y is NOT even a trait of autism?

Lack of imagination and so and so are not traits of autism. So how could a trait that autistics don't have cause them to do anything?

(SOME auitistics, like a child a friend knew, do have a total lack of ability to even conceive of "money" as a concept.But other autistics are the opposite, and too wrapped up in inner thoughts and fantasies.).

"Concrete thinking" is a trait of autism.

As I said earlier, search google.

Concrete Thinking in Children with Asperger's and HFA
http://www.myaspergerschild.com/2013/06 ... -with.html

The idea is that ASD people might think more about details, and less effectively thinking abstractly.


We are all aware that there are ignorant dumb clucks who say erroneous stuff on websites.
Just because its on a website doesn't mean anything.

What makes that site so authoritative?

Does the DSM list lack of abstract thinking as a trait of autism?

There are numerous sites that discuss this.

Autism speakers like Temple Grandin given speeches saying how ASD people are "Detailed orientated thinkers" over (Big Picture) "Abstract thinkers" and how as such, the world needs ASD people.

Title: How Asperger people think
http://www.kennethrobersonphd.com/peopl ... hink-part/
"Perhaps the most common characteristic of Asperger’s thinking is a type of literalness known as concrete thinking. "

"For people who think concretely, abstract meaning is hard to grasp."


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,195
Location: USA

15 Jun 2018, 4:09 am

Further ....

That's why all all my life, many times people told me, "You lack common sense".

That's the NT way of saying, "You aren't seeing the big picture" or "You're not very good at thinking abstractly".


_________________
After a failure, the easiest thing to do is to blame someone else.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,148
Location: temperate zone

15 Jun 2018, 4:43 am

Not sure if "seeing the big picture" , and "thinking abstractly", are exactly the same thing.

But yes, that IS a thing I have experienced about autistics - detail oriented to the point that they are blind to the big picture. Seeing the trees but not the forest.

In fact it can be like a language barrier when on this very site.



Trogluddite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Feb 2016
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075
Location: Yorkshire, UK

15 Jun 2018, 1:10 pm

I wasn't brought up in a religious household, but I was exposed to it quite young after joining the Boys Brigade (a Methodist run youth organisation.) That involved plenty of Bible studies as part of the system of rewards and rank, and attendance at Sunday services, at least on parade days. All of the senior officers and most NCOs were active Methodists (I'm unsure if this was a strict requirement.) Even though we never spoke of religion at home and otherwise never attended a place of worship, my involvement at BB was never questioned and nor was any of their religious instruction (my father had been in the BB as a lad, and thoroughly approved, thinking that the military style discipline would bring me out of my shell - it didn't.)

The things is, I just never understood that people gathering to worship was anything different to any other kind of social gathering. The transcendental and faith aspects were seemingly inconceivable to me. Without wishing to demean anyone's faith (I'm older and wiser now, I hope!), I simply saw religious gathering as if it were a kind of fan-club for people who's "special interests" were their gods, prophets and a good sing-along, no different than, say, a Star Wars convention. I could see well enough that the Christian parables were often good lessons in morality, but if it was suggested that they were anything other than fiction, I assumed that this was just the enthusiasm of a committed fan, the same way that other people talked about the characters in their favourite soap opera as if they were real people or their favourite sporting heroes as if they were familiar friends. The entire spiritual aspect of religion simply went right over my head; it's not just that I didn't comprehend it - I didn't recognise at all that religious people experienced anything profound; I thought they just enjoyed it in the same sense that I enjoyed my hobbies.

Ultimately, although I have taken an interest in theology later in life and know which rational arguments appeal to me, I think it is a lack of a certain emotional response which makes me atheist (more strictly, agnostic - I consider the existence of a creator unlikely but not beyond all reasonable doubt.) Maybe being very alexithymic has some part to play in this, preventing me from feeling or recognising whatever the emotions are which people describe as faith and the transcendental; I don't really know, but I don't feel that it leaves a gaping hole in my life that needs filling, either.


_________________
When you are fighting an invisible monster, first throw a bucket of paint over it.


AngelRho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile

15 Jun 2018, 2:38 pm

Trogluddite wrote:
I wasn't brought up in a religious household, but I was exposed to it quite young after joining the Boys Brigade (a Methodist run youth organisation.) That involved plenty of Bible studies as part of the system of rewards and rank, and attendance at Sunday services, at least on parade days. All of the senior officers and most NCOs were active Methodists (I'm unsure if this was a strict requirement.) Even though we never spoke of religion at home and otherwise never attended a place of worship, my involvement at BB was never questioned and nor was any of their religious instruction (my father had been in the BB as a lad, and thoroughly approved, thinking that the military style discipline would bring me out of my shell - it didn't.)

The things is, I just never understood that people gathering to worship was anything different to any other kind of social gathering. The transcendental and faith aspects were seemingly inconceivable to me. Without wishing to demean anyone's faith (I'm older and wiser now, I hope!), I simply saw religious gathering as if it were a kind of fan-club for people who's "special interests" were their gods, prophets and a good sing-along, no different than, say, a Star Wars convention. I could see well enough that the Christian parables were often good lessons in morality, but if it was suggested that they were anything other than fiction, I assumed that this was just the enthusiasm of a committed fan, the same way that other people talked about the characters in their favourite soap opera as if they were real people or their favourite sporting heroes as if they were familiar friends. The entire spiritual aspect of religion simply went right over my head; it's not just that I didn't comprehend it - I didn't recognise at all that religious people experienced anything profound; I thought they just enjoyed it in the same sense that I enjoyed my hobbies.

Ultimately, although I have taken an interest in theology later in life and know which rational arguments appeal to me, I think it is a lack of a certain emotional response which makes me atheist (more strictly, agnostic - I consider the existence of a creator unlikely but not beyond all reasonable doubt.) Maybe being very alexithymic has some part to play in this, preventing me from feeling or recognising whatever the emotions are which people describe as faith and the transcendental; I don't really know, but I don't feel that it leaves a gaping hole in my life that needs filling, either.

Excellent post.

I think that the most important part of being a Christian is possessing faith in Jesus as savior. Right behind that is living out that faith in confession of same and in repentance. I don’t feel the same enthusiasm others do, I don’t have these wild and mystical encounters with the spiritual that others do. But I do know what that feels like and I’ve had religious experiences that might be more tangible than some. I might be wrong, but I think it’s the faith that is more important than feelings.

I do believe that the sense of the divine works alongside the other “classical” senses. Just like other senses can become disabled or unreliable, the same can happen with sensus divinatatis. I think it would be unfair to condemn a person for inability to sense the divine. But it would also be inexcusable to deny the divine in the same way it’s inexcusable to hurt people just because you’re a sociopath. “Feeling” and “ability” may help with building faith, but they are not necessary.



Amanda G23
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 23 Apr 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 26
Location: British Columbia

15 Jun 2018, 2:50 pm

Zachwashere wrote:
Do you think that due to the more literal, detail oriented and logic based thinking that is exhibited in most of us on the spectrum, there would be a higher rate of atheism in our community?

There have been studies showing that aspies are less likely to be religious. There are differing opinions as to why. This is how I would account for it:
Aspies are less influenced by socially normative group-think, therefore less likely to believe something just because lots of other people do. They are more likely to rely on logic and evidence in forming opinions. Anyone whose thinking is more rational than social would realise that truth is not a democracy; it is what is, regardless of how many people believe or disbelieve it. The evidence of history clearly supports this. Once upon a (not too distant) time, most people believed that the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around it, that mental illness was caused by demonic possession, and that plagues and natural disasters were caused by witches. These beliefs were wrong, even though the vast majority of people believed them. In fact, throughout recorded history, most people have believed things that were wrong (and disbelieved things that turned out to be right). I see no reason to assume that most people are any different today.
It seems obvious to me that if only a handful of people accepted the beliefs of most religions, they would be considered delusional. They would be viewed no differently that an adult who still believes in Santa Claus. Since most people are not intellectually disabled, I have to conclude that the general failure of people, who seem otherwise capable of logic, to view religions in this way is a result of social "thinking". Of course, not everyone is capable of using logic; anyone with a low IQ is not so capable, by definition (logic being one of the abilities that IQ measures). I think this is the reason for religious belief among aspies being as high as it is, since an aspergers diagnosis can be applied to someone with an IQ as low as 70, which I would consider quite low and sub-logical.


_________________
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society”
Jiddu Krishnamurti


RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,970
Location: Adelaide, Australia

18 Jun 2018, 1:35 am

AngelRho wrote:
My theistic views have evolved somewhat. I used to assume the same and would get caught in the whole burden of proof trap. It took me a while to figure out how atheists avoided burden of proof. I learned other ways to attack atheism with varying degrees of success that I found satisfying for the most part.
I'm glad you changed because if you kept attacking their beliefs you would be no better than them.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short