14 Jun 2018, 2:16 pm
14 Jun 2018, 2:24 pm
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Race or gender as it pertains to identity, not ideology. As to say don't simply state the identity of the characters.
An ideology can pertain to identity though.
Quote:
'Ghostbusters' would be SJW. Not because the leads were women and not because the genders of the cast were changed. Rather because it was (1) the only male characters were a male as the ditzy secretary and the villain - no strong counter examples or supporting characters given, (2) the villain was defeated literally by attacking his penis.
Oh, we agree on something!
14 Jun 2018, 2:27 pm
Peacesells wrote:
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Race or gender as it pertains to identity, not ideology. As to say don't simply state the identity of the characters.
An ideology can pertain to identity though.
Quote:
'Ghostbusters' would be SJW. Not because the leads were women and not because the genders of the cast were changed. Rather because it was (1) the only male characters were a male as the ditzy secretary and the villain - no strong counter examples or supporting characters given, (2) the villain was defeated literally by attacking his penis.
Oh, we agree on something!
So, explain why in the same manner I did with 'The Force Awakens' and 'The Last Jedi.'
For example one other fallacy by the right that call those films out "the villains were white"... um, so are Han, Leia, and Luke. Plus, 'The Last Jedi' certainly wasn't concerned with "whites are bad, non-whites are good" since one of the chief antagonists in 'The Last Jedi' is hispanic.
Last edited by Spooky_Mulder on 14 Jun 2018, 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
14 Jun 2018, 2:37 pm
14 Jun 2018, 2:42 pm
14 Jun 2018, 3:11 pm
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Han, Leia, and Luke were all supporting characters in 'The Force Awakens' and 'The Last Jedi.'
I'd say you're right about the villains, but I wouldn't say that makes it SJW. Since SJW would mean there's a political or societal message behind that. Which that wouldn't be the case since the white good guys weren't depicted in that manner, only the new films hinted that the villains could be other than white (that a black Storm Trooper exists), and one of the lead villains in TLJ is hispanic.
Vice Admiral Holdo was an extreme feminist. However, in the book prior to the film - few characters wanted to be associated with her since they thought she was too odd. Plus, the film initially sets her up as a potential villain due to her oddity. So, she was portrayed as being a rather annoying/in-your-face character/person intentionally. While her character is redeemed, I still don't see how it illustrates her overall personality in a glowing rather than "more-cons-than-pros" way.
I'd say you're right about the villains, but I wouldn't say that makes it SJW. Since SJW would mean there's a political or societal message behind that. Which that wouldn't be the case since the white good guys weren't depicted in that manner, only the new films hinted that the villains could be other than white (that a black Storm Trooper exists), and one of the lead villains in TLJ is hispanic.
Vice Admiral Holdo was an extreme feminist. However, in the book prior to the film - few characters wanted to be associated with her since they thought she was too odd. Plus, the film initially sets her up as a potential villain due to her oddity. So, she was portrayed as being a rather annoying/in-your-face character/person intentionally. While her character is redeemed, I still don't see how it illustrates her overall personality in a glowing rather than "more-cons-than-pros" way.
They were supporting characters but they weren't created by the new directors. Moreover the former male lead pretty much got destroyed, with only the female lead and Harrison f'n Ford being ok.
You have to compare these white, angsty, whiny and vapid teens with the very carefully diversificated group of the main heroes. Also, even among these heroes, the females are the ones who always know better and resolve the situations while the guys are goofy, arrogant, wanna-be macho and cause problems. Even when Finn wanted to actually resolve something and sacrifice his life for the cause and his friends the directors had Rose hit his vehicle (which could have easily killed him along with her) and give us some lame speech about how it was wrong for some reason.
I could even say that then she sexually abuses him. Just like that Rose scene the directors try to redeem Holdo and it just doesn't make much sense, as you say. The worse thing is that the Disney personnel is accusing people who raise acceptable and motivated criticism as misogynists and racists alt-righters. Alex Becker and other Youtubers are much better at criticizing the movie than I am and are also funny, you might want to take a look at their videos about it.
14 Jun 2018, 3:54 pm
Peacesells wrote:
Spooky_Mulder wrote:
Han, Leia, and Luke were all supporting characters in 'The Force Awakens' and 'The Last Jedi.'
I'd say you're right about the villains, but I wouldn't say that makes it SJW. Since SJW would mean there's a political or societal message behind that. Which that wouldn't be the case since the white good guys weren't depicted in that manner, only the new films hinted that the villains could be other than white (that a black Storm Trooper exists), and one of the lead villains in TLJ is hispanic.
Vice Admiral Holdo was an extreme feminist. However, in the book prior to the film - few characters wanted to be associated with her since they thought she was too odd. Plus, the film initially sets her up as a potential villain due to her oddity. So, she was portrayed as being a rather annoying/in-your-face character/person intentionally. While her character is redeemed, I still don't see how it illustrates her overall personality in a glowing rather than "more-cons-than-pros" way.
I'd say you're right about the villains, but I wouldn't say that makes it SJW. Since SJW would mean there's a political or societal message behind that. Which that wouldn't be the case since the white good guys weren't depicted in that manner, only the new films hinted that the villains could be other than white (that a black Storm Trooper exists), and one of the lead villains in TLJ is hispanic.
Vice Admiral Holdo was an extreme feminist. However, in the book prior to the film - few characters wanted to be associated with her since they thought she was too odd. Plus, the film initially sets her up as a potential villain due to her oddity. So, she was portrayed as being a rather annoying/in-your-face character/person intentionally. While her character is redeemed, I still don't see how it illustrates her overall personality in a glowing rather than "more-cons-than-pros" way.
They were supporting characters but they weren't created by the new directors. Moreover the former male lead pretty much got destroyed, with only the female lead and Harrison f'n Ford being ok.
You have to compare these white, angsty, whiny and vapid teens with the very carefully diversificated group of the main heroes. Also, even among these heroes, the females are the ones who always know better and resolve the situations while the guys are goofy, arrogant, wanna-be macho and cause problems. Even when Finn wanted to actually resolve something and sacrifice his life for the cause and his friends the directors had Rose hit his vehicle (which could have easily killed him along with her) and give us some lame speech about how it was wrong for some reason.
I could even say that then she sexually abuses him. Just like that Rose scene the directors try to redeem Holdo and it just doesn't make much sense, as you say. The worse thing is that the Disney personnel is accusing people who raise acceptable and motivated criticism as misogynists and racists alt-righters. Alex Becker and other Youtubers are much better at criticizing the movie than I am and are also funny, you might want to take a look at their videos about it.
So your rather minor complaint is you want new rather than old white heroes.
The females are painted as stronger. That is true. Personally that doesn’t really get to me since I’m driven by impulse and relate to that. I can see how guys who aren’t could feel left out because of that though and how that could be seen negatively.
I don’t understand Rose stopping Finn either, then again I would have done what Finn wanted to do. The intention with Rose was off due to her motivations for doing it - she wasn’t built up enough for it to go that way.
With Holdo it does since she’s inherently good. I’d view her the same if she was an awkward guy. Basically don’t jump to conclusions about people. Then again, I’ve read the book which delved further .
I see these mostly as development rather than SJW issues though except to women being painted as stronger and men as pure impulse.
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