Have you ever seen a burqa (or other face veil) in person?

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Yes, but not every day. There are people here from ~all faiths, but not an extremely high Muslim population even though there are Mosques a few minute drive from home. Or IF I do see them daily I don't notice. It's mostly Sikhs here wearing turbans vs. Muslims with their religious clothing because it's mostly Sikhs who populate the area.

When we see any of them down at the nude beach I hang out at in the Summer time, which is once in a blue moon vs. regularly, regular beachers jokingly refer to them amongst ourselves as "ninjas," coming to visit us beach apes Because it's funny; not because anyone is being rude or derogatory. Obviously if they're enjoying the sun, sand, and waves crashing on a massive hippie party beach on a University campus then they're pretty chill liberal people vs. judgemental of us and our exposed skin customs, so they're just as welcome to be at the beach as anyone. It's just a bit of a funny inside joke to spot some ninjas on the beach is all.. especially since there's a beach resident we all know as Ninja and part of the joke is differentiating being Ninja & ninjas when it's said.

Yes, many times in Leicester, England, including the full-blown face covering. Never in Arkansas. Leicester is about 23% Muslims, and probably 50% or more where I live. In Arkansas, it's less than 1%, and I've never knowingly seen one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... r#Religion

To me, they're one of those "I'd rather they didn't" things. Naturally they look extreme to me because I must have been at least in my 40s when I first saw them. I suppose everybody has their own views on how much flesh people should be allowed to show off. As regards a lot of indigenous Western people, I wish they'd cover up more, but there is a limit the other way too. I also feel a bit of disdain when anybody shows obedience to a deity, because as an atheist I tend to think they've been conned, and that it's just the men in their culture that like it that way, telling everybody it's what God wants when it's actually what they want.

Still, I wouldn't stop them. It's not hurting me, and it's not my job to put the world "right." I'd probably make a mess of it if I did. And at least they don't seem to be machinating for total control like some of the fundamentalist Christians do in Arkansas, so I should probably count my blessings.

^Yes, they do stir questions of religious/male control.

I don't really find them to look "extreme." Sometimes I just get more of a.. "unique fashion," sort of vibe from them - they look all chic and sheer, like some sort of model in a desert oasis fashion shoot as they're walking along the beach or rock jetty on a hot Sunny day with a light breeze. Kind of a neat sight, really.

Naturally the Location I'm in plays a big role in my perception, I'm sure. If I saw them in a shopping mall I might think something entirely different, or not much of at all. But since I hang out at the beach as often as possible, that's where I notice them once in a blue moon and the visual contrast compared to all the naked and half naked people around is quite striking. It's almost a bit of live performance art.. elegant ninjas in the breeze vs. the hippie masses under the Sun.

When I was headed to Japan at the airport in Canada (had to change flights from Atlanta to Quebec to fly there) I saw a bunch of flight attendants getting off a plane that came in from Egypt and they walked in a uniform fashioned wearing sleek red and tan business suits with skirts and high heels and their heads were wrapped in red burqas but they looked rather elegant I thought.

Maybe it's not so much about religious oppression as it is just a cultural thing for these people? Maybe some of their women prefer to wear these headwraps and as Westerners we have no right to judge them for it?

Maybe in the West it's more of a choice and that's okay.. but in the East where everyone is forced and if they don't they could face extremely harsh penalties of violence or jail, it's maybe not so okay. Big difference between a voluntary display of religious faith via fashion and being made to conceal yourself or be killed.

I know this but I still don't believe it should be our place to force them to change. Every time the West tries to force its own morals on the East it never seems to end well for either side.

It's not Westerners forcing Middle Eastern women to stand up for themselves and protest oppression. They're doing it on their own - and more would be if the consequences weren't so harsh.

I've seen some photos circulating of people in Iran in the 1970's.. very free to wear whatever they wanted to. 50 years or so of oppression is enough to piss people off without Western influence. I'm sure they're plenty sick of being what told what they can and can't wear and what they can and can't do.

Well that's good then. They should fight for their rights and it shouldn't be up to us to fight for them, especially if nobody asks for our help to begin with.

Disagree with you on this one. Human rights are human rights all over the world. Whether it's countries that murder gay people or oppress women or enslave workers, it IS the rest of the word's business to help people being victimized by poor governance. We shouldn't just turn a blind eye to it and leave everyone to fend for themselves, IMO.

Yeah sorry but I strongly disagree with you 100%. Forcing Western Values on the whole world because we believe our way is the only right way is a textbook example of Imperialism. It's wrong and it's a recipe for disaster plain and simple.

Ok. You're free to disagree all you like, but nearly the entire world has a consensus that human rights are universal and people shouldn't be murdered for innate human characteristics, oppressed for their gender, or enslaved etc etc. Which makes these things a global concern just like other things like war crimes and so on.

I don't believe people should be forced into any particular religion or language or diet or etc etc way of life, but I Do believe everyone should be able to live their lives with some degree of freedom from being abused, harmed, killed, taken advantage of etc.

Yes, many times.

Well all I can say is good luck fighting for your Utopia in a world as f****d up as this one.

There's a difference between helping an oppressed group who would clearly like our help, and "helping" a group who don't mind what we see as their being oppressed. Then there's a rather murky middle ground, where they don't seem to mind but we think they've just been brainwashed into thinking they don't mind. And forcing one (arguably) Western value onto an oppressive society is different from forcing the whole shebang down their throats. It's important also to think very carefully before wading in and trying to make a change, because these things may have some very unpleasant and unintended consequences.

All the more reason to stay out of the problems of other countries. In case you guys don't look at history itself every time The West tries to "help" these other countries they end up making things a lot worse in the long run.

Just look at my country's most recent blunders in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or Vietnam before these as some of the perfect examples.

I believe, to some extent it's a matter of how we try to accomplish goals.

We're prone to using a lot more stick than carrot and not having much patience. We expect other societies to cover what took us decades or centuries in years or months and then get frustrated when it doesn't work as planned.

As much as justice delayed is justice denied, I think in the long run we're still better off relying on incentives, combined with letting change occur naturally, rather than seeking to impose it.