Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism
15 Jan 2024, 10:27 pm
In this thread, let's discuss the following questions:
1) What is settler-colonialism?
2) What are the differences (and similarities) between settler-colonialism and other kinds of colonialism?
3) Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
4) What are the implications, in terms of what it might take to finally resolve the causes of the ongoing conflict in a humane and just manner?
See the following Wikipedia pages:
- Settler-colonialism
- Zionism as settler colonialism
See also the following Epedia page:
- What is the Difference Between Settler Colonialism and Colonialism?
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15 Jan 2024, 10:34 pm
Continuing this discussion from another thread: Here, I wrote:
What makes it settler-colonialist is/was settler-colonialist behaviors, not the mere fact that many (though not all) Israeli Jews came from Europe, nor the mere fact that Lord Balfour was British. [...]
Starting in about 1905 or so, Jewish Zionist immigrants to Palestine were doing things like buying up large tracts of land from absentee landlords and evicting all the former inhabitants, or starting businesses that originally employed local Arabs, but then suddenly fired them all in favor of newly-arriving Jews.
That sort of behavior greatly alarmed local Arabs. Had the Jewish Zionists immigrated in a less overbearing, less disruptive way, they would have been just immigrants, not settler-colonialists. Palestine had a long prior history of welcoming various groups of refugees, e.g. Armenians and Circassians.
Then, along came the Partition Plan, which was rejected by the Arabs as totally uncalled-for. Given that the Zionist Jews were still only a very small fraction of the population of Palestine, why should they be given the majority of the land, at the expense of the many more people who were already living there?
And then, in 1948, there was the Nakba, which has a lot in common with the Trail of Tears and other forced migrations of indigenous Americans here in the U.S.A. The Wikipedia articles on the Nakba and on the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight have a map showing all the forcibly depopulated villages.
That's not a reasonable goal at this point.
The U.S.A., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are settler-colonial societies too, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect all their non-indigenous inhabitants to move back to Europe or wherever our ancestors came from.
Ditto for South Africa, which was effectively de-colonized, to a significant degree at least, by the ending of Apartheid -- although there are still some unresolved, highly controversial issues such as land reform.
The French exodus from Algeria is a very unusual outcome for a settler-colonial society. Such an exodus is much more typical of the end of ordinary colonialism (dependencies, e.g. British rule in India) than of settler-colonialism. It is clearly not reasonable to expect this in Israel.
By the way, the facts that Israeli Jews come from many different countries around the world and that many of them cannot go back is a point of similarity to settler-colonialism as practiced here in the U.S.A during the century or so after the U.S.A. became an independent country, but while it was still in process of conquering the indigenous people. During that time, the U.S.A. was very welcoming of immigrants from all parts of Europe and sometimes from Asia too, telling both them and already-existing American citizens to "go West, young man!" -- so as to have more settlers to help put down the indigenous people and be rewarded with cheap land. Israel likewise goes out of its way to welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world, for what it euphemistically calls "demographic" reasons. And, just like many of the Jews who came to Israel after World War II, many immigrants to the U.S.A. were likewise fleeing persecution, wars, famines, and other unlivable conditions elsewhere in the world.
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15 Jan 2024, 10:41 pm
Do we have people chanting “Free Free Cherokee”, nope. Is there a discussion about does the phrase “From Ocean to Ocean” mean genocide or the local or state, provincial equivalent of a one state solution, no because there is no chant like that. There is little to no demand for a state, provincial, or local equivalent of a one or two state solution. The is not much of a BDS movement targeting America or Canada over their treatment of indigenous people or blacks.
There has not been a serious significant Indigenous people or black guerrilla war uprising for the purpose of making Canada, America, states, provinces, localities cease to exist. Should that happen how many these activists will say I accept being governed by people who blew up people I know, never mind leaving because I have no right to be here? Even if Trump is not President would the government reaction be less lethal than Israel’s or “proportional”?
I'll reply when I have time to do so. In the meantime, feel free to add further comments.
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ASPartOfMe
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16 Jan 2024, 6:20 am
I know you are busy because you did not have time to participate in our chat group so I appreciate taking time to create these threads.
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16 Jan 2024, 8:06 am
I do understand my analogies were far from perfect. While there is one Palestinian identity there are multiple tribes of Native Americans/First People. There was nothing remotely like a sustained bombing campaign in a densely populated area created by European-Americans, and European-Canadians.
That said of most of us North Americans are living on racial cleansed land and are not dealing with the remnant discrimination and dehumanization. The native American/First Peoples situation would seem to fit into “woke ideology” view of hierarchies of privileges and oppression and systematic racism.
The obvious reason North American indigenous peoples plight have lower priority(less in the U.S. then Canada as the sixties scoop is more recent) is they have no equivalent of the George Floyd video or the multiple videos from Gaza.
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country. But it is also more personal to say look in the mirror and say to yourself while you hope you would still feel Israel should not exist as Jewish state would you feel that if you had their history and situation? Or more close to home would you support the replacement of the U.S. even if a lot of advocates are pretty violent about it?
If I was a Palestinian living in Gaza would I have supported 10/7. I sincerely hope not. I am not sure. If I was a Palestinian-American with ties to Gaza or the West Bank would I think the current civil disobedience campaign is to wimpy and that bombing synagogues is the way to go? I hope not. I hope I would be able separate American Jews from West Bank settlers. I am not sure that I would not note that most American synagogues are actively zionist an cheer such a “freedom fighter” campaign.
There are people who under horrible circumstances don’t let their emotions get to them. Are you one of those people? If you think so think again, and again. If you are one was those people I admire you because you are a better person then me, period.
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DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
16 Jan 2024, 8:44 am
That said of most of us North Americans are living on racial cleansed land and are not dealing with the remnant discrimination and dehumanization. The native American/First Peoples situation would seem to fit into “woke ideology” view of hierarchies of privileges and oppression and systematic racism.
The obvious reason North American indigenous peoples plight have lower priority(less in the U.S. then Canada as the sixties scoop is more recent) is they have no equivalent of the George Floyd video or the multiple videos from Gaza.
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country. But it is also more personal to say look in the mirror and say to yourself while you hope you would still feel Israel should not exist as Jewish state would you feel that if you had their history and situation? Or more close to home would you support the replacement of the U.S. even if a lot of advocates are pretty violent about it?
If I was a Palestinian living in Gaza would I have supported 10/7. I sincerely hope not. I am not sure. If I was a Palestinian-American with ties to Gaza or the West Bank would I think the current civil disobedience campaign is to wimpy and that bombing synagogues is the way to go? I hope not. I hope I would be able separate American Jews from West Bank settlers. I am not sure that I would not note that most American synagogues are actively zionist an cheer such a “freedom fighter” campaign.
There are people who under horrible circumstances don’t let their emotions get to them. Are you one of those people? If you think so think again, and again. If you are one was those people I admire you because you are a better person then me, period.
To a large extent it's true that North America is racially cleansed, however it's worth noting that a significant portion of the space was cleared via infectious disease before there was any direct contact. meaning that even without the land being purposefully cleared, a significant quantity would have gone to settlers anyways.
Which is a bit different as all the Palestinian land that's in settler hands has to be cleared in some fashion.
16 Jan 2024, 2:03 pm
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country.
A fundamental difference between the US and Israel is that the US is not a "European" (or any other ethnicity) State. On the contrary it prides itself to be a melting pot where no ethnicity have any special legal rights.
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16 Jan 2024, 2:36 pm
Israel is exactly like the US or Australia.
The difference is the ratio in population sizes between the colonists and aboriginal populations.
The Jewish population of Palestine, and the Arab population, have always been of comparable size (in the millions) since the founding of Israel though both have grown a lot in size during that time.
The Australian Abos could never dream of driving the ENTIRE White population out of Australia the way the Palestinians could in theory drive all Zionist Jews out of Israel (and certainly Israel could cleanse Israel of Arabs even more easily)..even if the Aboriginies had been getting advanced weapons from from foreign superpowers. Thats because the Aboriginies only had 100 thousand people against the White population in the millions.
In 1860 The US had settled all of the land from the Atlantic to just a little west of the Mississippi. Beyond that frontier were the still wild Indians who numbered 300 thousand. The White (and African) population of the US was 30 million. A hundred times the ENTIRE population of Indians.
In 1861 White America took time off from expanding west at the expense of the Indians to...beat the crap out of itself in the Civil War. During that war it lost 600 thousand lives, or more. A number twice the size of the ENTIRE native American population at that time!
White America was able slaughter its 600K of its own people in a war..and then just pick up where it left off...and finishing the conquest of the remaining 300 thousand native Americans ...by 1890...without breaking a sweat.
THAT is how lopsided the contest was in the demographic size of the two sides.
17 Jan 2024, 2:39 am
One possible source of confusion has occurred to me.
There are two sets of issues:
1) Israel as a whole is indeed a settler-colonial state, to begin with, as explained earlier in this thread.
2) However, back in the 1990's, the PLO agreed to a compromise known as the Oslo Accords. Since then, the term "Israeli settler" commonly refers only to those Israeli citizens who live in occupied territories (in violation of the Oslo Accords and in violation of international law more generally), rather than in Israel proper.
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17 Jan 2024, 3:07 am
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
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17 Jan 2024, 3:32 am
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
Most immigrants to America during the era Ellis Island operated (1880s to 1924) were from southern and from eastern Europe. Most American Jews are here because their grand parents came over here during that era from the Russian or from the Austro-Hungarian Empires of east Europe. As well as most Gentile Poles and Italians. Forty million people came here during that time.
But the rest of what you're saying is right. White folks from Eastern Europe were just as hated as non Whites by the core society so thats why they enacted the "National Origins Quota Act" and shut down Ellis Island.
When they repealed the rule in 1964 because it violated the then recent civil right legislation a new wave of immigrants started to trickle in from the Third World of brown and Black folks.
ASPartOfMe
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17 Jan 2024, 5:53 am
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
Most immigrants to America during the era Ellis Island operated (1880s to 1924) were from southern and from eastern Europe. Most American Jews are here because their grand parents came over here during that era from the Russian or from the Austro-Hungarian Empires of east Europe. As well as most Gentile Poles and Italians. Forty million people came here during that time.
But the rest of what you're saying is right. White folks from Eastern Europe were just as hated as non Whites by the core society so thats why they enacted the "National Origins Quota Act" and shut down Ellis Island.
When they repealed the rule in 1964 because it violated the then recent civil right legislation a new wave of immigrants started to trickle in from the Third World of brown and Black folks.
This is exactly how my grandparents and great grandparents immigrated here. There was both pogroms and Russians going from village to village and forcing people into the army.
Anti Semitism peaked in America late 1930s and into the 1940s with the German-American Bund and Christian Front and celebrity Anti-Semites Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg, and radio personality Father Coughlin.
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“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
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