Has anyone succeeded in arguing with an NT?

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__Elijahahahaho
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23 Jan 2024, 6:13 pm

I don't know,
I used to feel like I could express myself pretty well, but it feels increasingly like
there's this kind of enshittification of discourse.
People resort to nonsense ad-hominem, gibberish. I feel like I cannot think anymore after so much BS.
People rarely listen to my detailed points. They don't want to understand.

Today someone said "I feel like the moral relativism card is something people play when they are backed into a corner".

I never thought about arguments in terms of cards before. Are we supposed to notice what everyone says in terms of some kind of card game and notice how they respond all the time?
That sounds EXHAUSTING.



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23 Jan 2024, 6:27 pm

__Elijahahahaho wrote:
Has anyone succeeded in arguing with an NT?

Many times.

More often though, they became angry with me for my fact-based arguments, told me to shut the eff up, and went ahead with what they had already decided.

Then I would have my "I told you so" moment.

For some people, it seems more important to engage them on an emotional level than on an intellectual one.  Then again, people who base their decisions on their emotions are more likely to make irrational decisions that harm themselves, others, or both.  Trying to rationally engage such people usually leads to conflict as well.


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funeralxempire
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23 Jan 2024, 6:32 pm

Yes. I find not being condescending or talking to people like they're irrational imbeciles helps a lot.


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IsabellaLinton
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23 Jan 2024, 8:30 pm

I've put some in prison, so you could say yes.


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DanielW
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23 Jan 2024, 8:34 pm

Succeeded in arguing? Sure. its easy to start an argument.



bee33
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23 Jan 2024, 9:54 pm

I can't be bothered to argue. I usually try to find some aspect of what they are saying that I agree with and go with that. I don't want to argue. It just upsets me. And it's not going to change anyone's mind. When I'm talking with someone face to face I want to enjoy their humanity and don't want to argue if I can help it. (Some people of course will press a particular button that will make me angry, but I hope to avoid that, not engage with it.)

I try not to argue online either, though I sometimes fail, and have done so on WP...



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23 Jan 2024, 9:55 pm

People who argue in bad faith simply aren't worth engaging. But finding people who wish to argue in good faith is difficult.


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24 Jan 2024, 2:58 am

Yes, but it depends what you mean by succeeding. I've sometimes been able to shut them up in a verbal combat, if that counts. But at such times they've usually started the argument in bad faith and I've descended to their level, which can be quite satisfying in a sense, like it would be if somebody punched me and I gave as "good" as I got and showed the bastard the folly of messing with me, but there's something rather immature and brutal about it all and I'd really much rather have mutual courtesy.



funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:01 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
Yes, but it depends what you mean by succeeding. I've sometimes been able to shut them up in a verbal combat, if that counts. But at such times they've usually started the argument in bad faith and I've descended to their level, which can be quite satisfying in a sense, like it would be if somebody punched me and I gave as "good" as I got and showed the bastard the folly of messing with me, but there's something rather immature and brutal about it all and I'd really much rather have mutual courtesy.


I mean, technically if you win the fight you haven't descended to their level because they're on the floor and you're standing. :nerdy:


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ToughDiamond
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24 Jan 2024, 3:12 am

^
I suppose that's true of some physical fights, though I don't think I've ever knocked anybody to the floor. It's also metaphorically true of some of the verbal altercations I've been in, if the level in question is about who is the strongest bad-faith arguer, but then there's the moral or aesthetic(?) high and low ground, and I meant that really. But you're joking aren't you?



cyberdad
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24 Jan 2024, 3:13 am

I get served regularly on WP....so I can vouch for a fair number of success stories



funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:22 am

ToughDiamond wrote:
^
I suppose that's true of some physical fights, though I don't think I've ever knocked anybody to the floor. It's also metaphorically true of some of the verbal altercations I've been in, if the level in question is about who is the strongest bad-faith arguer, but then there's the moral or aesthetic(?) high and low ground, and I meant that really. But you're joking aren't you?


Half-joking, half-serious.

With verbal arguments I'd say the more bad faith the other party relies on, the weaker they and their cause look overall.

Sometimes you can win by how you present your argument, other times more so with how you dismantle the other person's argument. One doesn't always win in the moment though, sometimes the other party will dwell on something that was said and reflect upon it.

Regardless though, I'd say winning rarely makes one look worse, unless they conduct themselves like a bad winner. If there's an audience, even if one considers engaging in the contest lowering themselves, in the eyes of the people who saw it the winner typically gains respect in some degree by winning.


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24 Jan 2024, 3:40 am

The willingness to engage in sincere debate is a rare quality, whether one is neurotypical (NT) or has autism. Winning a debate is good, provided that the opponent is prepared for a graceful surrender.


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funeralxempire
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24 Jan 2024, 3:42 am

belijojo wrote:
Winning a debate is good, provided that the opponent is prepared for a graceful surrender.


Not gonna lie, sometimes an incredibly disgraceful non-surrender can be pretty fulfilling too. :twisted:


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Edna3362
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24 Jan 2024, 4:28 am

More or less.

The key here, I think in my experience, is either being very internally regulated to not tilt into giving up and actually play them with bluffs -- or be one of those external fact based person who do not have to need said internal regulation or bluffing.

The ideal is being both.
Being the one with the charm or having everyone's side is a bonus; a crutch in helplessness when it came to arguments.


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naturalplastic
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24 Jan 2024, 7:18 am

Hmmmm...

An argument in which...the difference of opinion stemmed from...different thinking styles. Different thinking styles that seemed to stem from me being aspie and the other person being NT?

I had a running argument with a low level supervisor lady that probably had to do with that sorta thing. Finally it came to a head after months when I asked her one simple question. Instead reacting the way I expected ...by either saying "you're right..I must have had a temporary brain-fart", OR by persuading ME that I had a brain fart... she ...literally broke down and cried tears right in front of me. So I...just backed off at that point. Dont know if "reducing the other person to tears without even trying to" counts as "winning an argument",or not. :lol:

But the argument had to do with a completely irrational thing she would say...and her loyal subordinates would buy into it...or pretend to buy into it. I would call her out.