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Honey69
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16 Mar 2024, 1:38 pm

^ Yeah, but the still take her for a virgin.


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RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 1:56 pm

Honey69 wrote:
^ Yeah, but the still take her for a virgin.


I realize that such a thing is impossible in reality but I still find the fact that Mary has been alluded to two other pagan goddesses through opposite sides of persecution (Mexicans were forced to convert to Christianity under threat of death while the Japanese Christians had to underground about their religous beliefs under threat of death).

I've also read some theories that Mary's "Virgin Birth" may have been a concept borrowed by the Egyptian Goddess Isis.

https://www.columbia.edu/~sf2220/Thing/ ... /meg2.html

You can smuggly mock religion all you want, but like it or not they play an important role in human history. And I find it fascinating that so many deities are linked together.


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DazyDaisy
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16 Mar 2024, 2:13 pm

^^^ I was just about to mention Japanese Dogu figurines and how all those figurines are similar, all around the world. They mainly resemble birds, frogs, cats, bulls, but sometimes they look like alians.

https://artrkl.com/blogs/news/the-mystery-of-japans-dog-figures


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RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 2:26 pm

DazyDaisy wrote:
^^^ I was just about to mention Japanese Dogu figurines and how all those figurines are similar, all around the world. They mainly resemble birds, frogs, cats, bulls, but sometimes they look like alians.

https://artrkl.com/blogs/news/the-mystery-of-japans-dog-figures


Wow those are very cool! I believe there were some of those featured in a Japanese survival horror video game I played many years ago called Siren. They held a strange power and were used to destroy a Lovecraft-like deity in the end.

Had no idea what they were at the time. They also remind me of this interesting female-shaped artifact that has been discovered in mant parts of the world known as "Venus of Willendorf" (no relation to the Roman Goddess Venus). :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf


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naturalplastic
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16 Mar 2024, 2:27 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I would personally have no objections to honoring Mary even though I wasn't raised Catholic. In fact there's some interesting history behind how she was linked to the Aztec Mother Goddess known as Tonantzin after the people of Mexico were (forcibly) converted to Christianity by the Spanish where she became known as "Our Lady of Guadalupe". Also even in Japan she had an interesting history where she was linked to the Goddess of Mercy known as Kannon by underground Japanese Christians who used Kannon's statues and imagery in substitute for Mary in order to avoid persecution by the Shogun which had outlawed outside religions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theyuc ... alupe/amp/

https://paragonbook.art.blog/2019/06/12 ... ia-kannon/


In a way, it's like Mother Mary is 'every' Goddess! :D

Pretty much. Adults, both men and women, seemed to crave a deity that shows a motherly female face now and then.

These unrelentingly male gods of the Trinity and of Israel and Islam just dont cut it. In fact the Virgin Mary is actually a surprisingly key figure in Islam Ive heard.



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16 Mar 2024, 2:30 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I would personally have no objections to honoring Mary even though I wasn't raised Catholic. In fact there's some interesting history behind how she was linked to the Aztec Mother Goddess known as Tonantzin after the people of Mexico were (forcibly) converted to Christianity by the Spanish where she became known as "Our Lady of Guadalupe". Also even in Japan she had an interesting history where she was linked to the Goddess of Mercy known as Kannon by underground Japanese Christians who used Kannon's statues and imagery in substitute for Mary in order to avoid persecution by the Shogun which had outlawed outside religions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theyuc ... alupe/amp/

https://paragonbook.art.blog/2019/06/12 ... ia-kannon/


In a way, it's like Mother Mary is 'every' Goddess! :D

Pretty much. Adults, both men and women, seemed to crave a deity that shows a motherly female face now and then.

These unrelentingly male gods of the Trinity and of Israel and Islam just dont cut it. In fact the Virgin Mary is actually a surprisingly key figure in Islam Ive heard.


That's exactly how my mom explained it to me. Every religion, even deeply patriarchal ones, try to put some kind of motherly face to their "divine" because as children we respond better to our mothers who nurture us.

The Virgin Mary fits that role for most Christians.


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AnanstrixG
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16 Mar 2024, 3:28 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Since you enjoyed that educational video on the origins of Yahweh that I shared with you. Here are two more by the same man who explains the interesting history of Lilith. :)


Much appreciated, have them saved to watch.


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DoniiMann
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16 Mar 2024, 4:23 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I actually prefer Goddess Columbia over The Virgin Mary. She is the REAL "American Goddess". 8)

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... %20victory.


Towards an American Paganism: https://www.ceisiwrserith.com/america/index.htm


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naturalplastic
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16 Mar 2024, 4:41 pm

Lord Baltimore founded the colony of Maryland as a refuge for British Catholics.

It was next door to the earliest colony of Virginia.

A century later the new American Republic made its capital at a piece of land between the two.

So...we have ..."the Virgin Mary" (Virginia next to Maryland) surrounding...the "District of Columbia"!

Coincidence?



RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 4:50 pm

DoniiMann wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I actually prefer Goddess Columbia over The Virgin Mary. She is the REAL "American Goddess". 8)

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... %20victory.


Towards an American Paganism: https://www.ceisiwrserith.com/america/index.htm


I like that. 8)

To be honest I really like the idea of Columbia as an actual pagan goddess representing the ideals of "the new world". And she's more of a national symbol than an object of actual worship, but that kind of fits perfectly into a nation that was founded on the idea of religous freedom (in theory at least).

Maybe as an existing goddess that fits her domain perfectly? She doesn't demand worship like the other deities out there, she just desires for her followers to live as happy and free as possible.

There's also some rather interesting old political cartoons depicting her defending a wheeping Chinese immigrant from an angry lynch mob of white men and another where she honors an African American Union soldier standing on crutches with an amputated leg.

To me she's a goddess who personifies what my country SHOULD be about, and we have come close at times...

The only reason I havent fully embraced her in worship is because any time I mentioned her in neopagan communities I had to deal with nasty anti-American types who are convinced that my country is so hopelessly evil that I should be ashamed of myself for even existing. Then I get told "Bye Felicia!" As they bully my ass off facebook and reddit.

-_-

Image
Image


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Last edited by RedDeathFlower13 on 16 Mar 2024, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 4:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Lord Baltimore founded the colony of Maryland as a refuge for British Catholics.

It was next door to the earliest colony of Virginia.

A century later the new American Republic made its capital at a piece of land between the two.

So...we have ..."the Virgin Mary" (Virginia next to Maryland) surrounding...the "District of Columbia"!

Coincidence?


Lol indeed! A Divine New World Goddess born out of the "Virgin Mary" :mrgreen:


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DoniiMann
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16 Mar 2024, 5:18 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I like that. 8)

To be honest I really like the idea of Columbia as an actual pagan goddess representing the ideals of "the new world". And she's more of a national symbol than an object of actual worship, but that kind of fits perfectly into a nation that was founded on the idea of religous freedom (in theory at least).

Maybe as an existing goddess that fits her domain perfectly? She doesn't demand worship like the other deities out there, she just desires for her followers to live as happy and free as possible.

There's also some rather interesting old political cartoons depicting her defending a wheeping Chinese immigrant from an angry lynch mob of white men and another where she honors an African American Union soldier standing on crutches with an amputated leg.

To me she's a goddess who personifies what my country SHOULD be about, and we have come close at times...

The only reason I havent fully embraced her in worship is because any time I mentioned her in neopagan communities I had to deal with nasty anti-American types who are convinced that my country is so hopelessly evil that I should be ashamed of myself for even existing. Then I get told "Bye Felicia!" As they bully my ass off facebook and reddit.


Great pictures, and I agree, they show a Goddess representing how things should be.
We can't interact with every neoPagan out there. There's so many. So, as with any religious, ideological, or cultural set, we choose our sub-sets to interact with. To that end, and I expect that an American form of paganism is an ongoing interest for Ceisiwr, it might be an idea to reach out to him and ask if he knows of sub-groups working on that project. If he does, it might be that you can get in with them and avoid the bigoted neos out there.


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RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 5:34 pm

Thanks for the recommendation. :) I might look into contacting him someday if I can work up the courage to.

Also I really love the words Columbia is saying in those two comics, even though they're so small and faded it's kinda hard to read...

In regards to defending the Chinese man she is telling that lynch mob with an angry look on her face: "Hands off, gentleman! America means fair play for ALL men!"

And for the wounded African American Union soldier she is saying "And not this man?"


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AnanstrixG
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16 Mar 2024, 6:00 pm

In my opinion, Goddess Columbia was a secular goddess because she had to be. The union between two factions at odds over a religious difference, this required a higher purpose, if only to unite the two. This was Columbia, her flag worn proudly.


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RedDeathFlower13
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16 Mar 2024, 6:11 pm

AnanstrixG wrote:
In my opinion, Goddess Columbia was a secular goddess because she had to be. The union between two factions at odds over a religious difference, this required a higher purpose, if only to unite the two. This was Columbia, her flag worn proudly.


I also like to believe that like so many goddesses of antiquity she was created out of scyncretism. I can see traits of Inanna, Athena, Isis, and other proud goddesses reflected in her. She embodies the personality of a young outspoken woman who rebels and conquers. She is certainly war-like but also compassionate and empathetic too. Refusing to stay quiet in the face of injustice. :)


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RedDeathFlower13
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18 Mar 2024, 1:29 pm

Anyways I think I've strayed waaay off topic...

Here's some interesting facts about the Shichifukujin if anyone is curious? :)

https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/seven.shtml

Apparently there were originally more than 7 deities found within this group, one being a second goddess named Kichijoten. She is depicted holding a round jewel and wears a radiant crown.

https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/kichijouten.html


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