Discussion on juvenile sentencing standards

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I'm not sure the state has any obligation to deliver emotional satisfaction to victims of crime. Ultimately the state has to do what's best for society as a whole and that might conflict with people's individual emotional preferences.

I agree with you that wanting revenge is a normal human response, but that doesn't mean it's one that should inform how criminal sentencing is handled.

If you intend on releasing people you need to help ensure they're able to be released without winding up right back in prison. That will often involve disregarding the feelings of anyone who wants to see the criminal made to suffer as much as possible, but the most effective policies won't be about soothing the victim's id through brutality.

Ultimately the state has a responsibility to not act in accordance with people's worst desires.

I think attempts at rehabilitation should almost always be made. Those who can’t be rehabilitated should be kept from hurting others, but I also don’t think they should be subjected to inhumane conditions/treatment either.

Well there's always anarchy.

(Sorry that was a bad joke I know)

And see all that right there is why I'm absolutely convinced that I live in a world that blames the victims and rewards the worst among us. Especially if they are rich and influential enough.

We should just admit that nobody in this world actually cares about the victims. We're all very much alone in this miserable world, and then sooner or later we're all dead and time forgets us.

How did you come to those conclusions based on that post?

Lots of people do care about those who’ve been victimized in some way. It’s not like caring about rehabilitation precludes caring about those who’ve been harmed.

Obviously, many do not care at all about prison reform/criminals which explains why change hasn’t happened yet. Many people care about victims which is why there are so many advocacy groups, abuse shelters, and other programs designed to help victims. There needs to be more stuff, but it’s not like “nobody in this world actually cares about the victims.”

I'm not trying to be argumentative so please don't take offense (although I admit I was being a tad snarky).

But I just don't grasp how people can claim to care about both the victim and the victimizer.

Plus like funeralxempire said the government is under no obligation to actually tend to the emotional needs of the victims.

Take the case of my mom and her abusive ex husband who still stalks her for example.

She has a restraining order, but (and I'm not exaggerating) the cops around here have done nothing when he violates it and treated her like a drama queen telling her that she just "needed to work it out with him."

My mom also owns a gun for self-defense because of this, buuut we all know how the "morally superior" leftists in politics feel about that 2nd Amendment. Who really cares if a single woman who's been through abuse, rape, and the murder of her sister needs to feel safer when even the cops won't do a damn thing to help her?

I don't see how anybody looks out for her needs as a victim. She's very much had to look out for herself and society has NEVER made it easy on her.

How is not giving into any given victim's desire for revenge blaming that victim? It's literally just saying no, you don't get to determine an appropriate punishment, that's the justice system's job.

Beyond that, how is detaining and rehabilitating someone for an extended period rewarding them? Making sure they have more options that ending up back in prison isn't being done as a favour for them, it's being done for the benefit of the entire society. It's largely a matter of harm reduction. If you're going to let them out you need to have the supports in place to make sure they don't just end up back in prison, otherwise why bother releasing them in the first place?

It seems like you're saying a justice system has to be focused on making the convicted suffer, otherwise somehow victims are being blamed. Either I don't understand what you're trying to say or your logic isn't very logical.

^^ I’ve experienced those same things apart from the murder of a sister. I don’t approve of guns mostly because, statistically, they put the owner of the gun and children, if there are any around, in more danger. I’d be much more likely to accidentally shoot myself than my abusive ex.

I’m sorry that your mom didn’t receive more support from the police. I’ve experienced victim-blaming myself, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t people out there who genuinely care.

It’s very easy to develop black and white thinking and zero in on the stuff that seems to confirm our beliefs, but it’s not a true reflection of reality.

It's wrong that they refuse to treat him breaking the terms of the restraining order as an additional offence. If he can't abide by those terms that should be grounds to detain him again.

The victim's emotional needs aren't relevant to what the sentence should be, but that doesn't mean that nothing should be done from that side. It might not be a bad idea for counselling and therapy to be made available (at no cost) to victims of crime.

Treating the victim's needs shouldn't be done through sentencing though. The victim's desire for revenge shouldn't be considered when determining a proper sentence, otherwise any victim who screams for blood loudly enough can have undue influence on a proceeding that shouldn't be driven by emotion in the first place.

You guys are making sense... but I dunno. I don't think I have much to contribute to this kind of debate I've been angry about stuff like this for years. Maybe I have a touch of PTSD myself?

Just know I'm not mad at you guys, but I think I need to stop discussing more about this stuff because it's triggering really bad memories for me, which I know is my fault because I said I wouldnt say anymore.

I truly do apologize....

No, it’s cool. It could be PTSD. Have you ever talked to a therapist about this stuff?

Working through past experiences has helped me although I’ve never really experienced feelings of vengeance which is weird. I wouldn’t want bad stuff to happen to my abusers in jail. I also wouldn’t be against attempts to rehabilitate them although I don’t think they’d help given how extreme the abuse was.

I'll bring it up when i talk ti my new doctor soon.

Also I have bipolar disorder type 1 with psychosis, maybe that's where some of the rage comes from?

I can't imagine not having a degree of emotional investment in a topic like this, all the more so given some of what you've described your loved ones having been through.

For what it's worth, some of why I tend to take a very the state's job isn't to get revenge for anyone position is because I know how prone to being vengeful I can be, and how the more one gives into those feelings, the easier to is to justify evil actions to one's self.

Preserving decency sometimes means dismissing our worst urges and desires because we know they won't make any positive contribution.

I know for me, the 'upcycle' certainly provides a lot more energy to sustain intense rage.

All-in-all there's nothing to be sorry for, we can disagree or present dissenting opinions without it being a problem.

Last edited by funeralxempire on 20 Mar 2024, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It could be.

I think I remember reading somewhere that males with PTSD are more likely to experience anger as a symptom too.

Edit:

https://psychcentral.com/ptsd/signs-and ... ith%20PTSD.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 20 Mar 2024, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That seems likely. As a male you tend to be pressured towards recognizing the entire spectrum of negative emotions as synonymous with anger.