Three Underworld Queens of different religions

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DazyDaisy
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22 Mar 2024, 12:42 am

The theme of Underworld is not only and always about Gods and established solely in religious beliefs, it could be also found in fairytails of many different nations. It is usually about a beautiful princess who was abducted by a horrible dragon and her father, the King, would award the brave knight who would bring his daughter back to him and even give her as a wife to the one who accomplish the task. Many knights failed but the bravest one had to go over seven seas and seven mounaines and seven valleys, and eventually even visit the Underworld to be able to find the Dragon's cave, save the princess and bring her back.

The concept of Underworld is probably as old as a humankind and is representing not just the unknown world from the other side of death but also our own subconciousness, as well as natural forces that are comming from the deep inside of Earth.

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Maybe they were smarter than most of us in today's world and recognized death as the great equalizer? :skull:


^^^ I would personally agree with that. Actually I would go with those beliefs that death is not the end, it's a change. If you look at the nature everything first blooms than dies and then it blooms again, and dies again, and so over and over again. There are beliefs that we, humans, (and all of the other creatures, of course) wear our bodies as a piece of clothes or as a vehicle to carry us through this life. The reason for justifying the need of death, the way the nature arranged it for all of us, is not only that vehicle gets old and that we need another one, but also because of that we don't need to carry out our experiences and memories for the life span of, let's say, thousand years. An avarage life span of 70-100 years should be enough and than we are given the chance to be born again. Our soul would need a new, young, innocent vehicle to start all over again, but maybe in an improved version of ourselves, because our soul is experienced and has learned from the mistakes from past lives. For those of us who believe in reincarnation, of course :).

So, thanks for the links, a lot of new things to learn. I also hope the other people will come, too, and dicuss the topics you write about. I believe there are more of them on WP.








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22 Mar 2024, 1:01 am

DazyDaisy wrote:
The theme of Underworld is not only and always about Gods and established solely in religious beliefs, it could be also found in fairytails of many different nations. It is usually about a beautiful princess who was abducted by a horrible dragon and her father, the King, would award the brave knight who would bring his daughter back to him and even give her as a wife to the one who accomplish the task. Many knights failed but the bravest one had to go over seven seas and seven mounaines and seven valleys, and eventually even visit the Underworld to be able to find the Dragon's cave, save the princess and bring her back.

The concept of Underworld is probably as old as a humankind and is representing not just the unknown world from the other side of death but also our own subconciousness, as well as natural forces that are comming from the deep inside of Earth.

Quote:
Maybe they were smarter than most of us in today's world and recognized death as the great equalizer? :skull:


^^^ I would personally agree with that. Actually I would go with those beliefs that death is not the end, it's a change. If you look at the nature everything first blooms than dies and then it blooms again, and dies again, and so over and over again. There are beliefs that we, humans, (and all of the other creatures, of course) wear our bodies as a piece of clothes or as a vehicle to carry us through this life. The reason for justifying the need of death, the way the nature arranged it for all of us, is not only that vehicle gets old and that we need another one, but also because of that we don't need to carry out our experiences and memories for the life span of, let's say, thousand years. An avarage life span of 70-100 years should be enough and than we are given the chance to be born again. Our soul would need a new, young, innocent vehicle to start all over again, but maybe in an improved version of ourselves, because our soul is experienced and has learned from the mistakes from past lives. For those of us who believe in reincarnation, of course :).

So, thanks for the links, a lot of new things to learn. I also hope the other people will come, too, and dicuss the topics you write about. I believe there are more of them on WP.








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I'm very glad you liked all this. :heart:

And yes that is an excellent comparison of a knight trying to rescue a princess from a dragon in the dark underground caves. In Persephone's case interestingly enough that "brave knight" was actually her loving mother Demeter who did like any real mother would and search the whole earth to rescue her beloved daughter from her kidnapper.

And in Izanami's case it was her husband Izanagi who entered the realm of Yomi armed with a magic spear ready to rescue his beloved wife, but was unfortunately too late to save her as she had fed on the food of the dead and essentially became like a zombified goddess. So he was forced to flee Yomi and seal her away in the cave with a huge boulder blocking the entrance.

In those two cases Izanagi failed and was tragically seperated from his wife forever, while Demeter did manage to get her daughter back but only for half the year because the other half would be spent with her new husband Hades the King of the Underworld.

In that animated video I didn't particularly like how they portrayed Demeter as just an annoying helicopter parent over Persephone. I believe that Demeter had good reason for wanting to protect her daughter from the other gods given what Poseidon did to her...


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DazyDaisy
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22 Mar 2024, 2:08 am

Yes, that illustrates that we can't always fully protect what we cherish, but maybe because it is needed more somewhere else and the best we can is to have it half of the time. Like spring and summer or natural forces that are beneficial to all of us but occur only once on a year, a decade, a century and so on.


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22 Mar 2024, 7:46 am

DazyDaisy wrote:
Yes, that illustrates that we can't always fully protect what we cherish, but maybe because it is needed more somewhere else and the best we can is to have it half of the time. Like spring and summer or natural forces that are beneficial to all of us but occur only once on a year, a decade, a century and so on.


Indeed, Demeter had to learn to accept that her daughter was now married which I imagine was very hard for her like it would be for any mother (especially given the... um... unfortunate way her son-in-law met her daughter.)

Also another interesting thing I want to point out is how the same myth can differ depending on who is telling it.

For example the video says that Hermes the Messenger God was the one who guided Demeter to the Underworld, but the way I heard that story it was actually Hecate the Greek Goddess of Witchcraft who guided Demeter to help her find her daughter.

Hecate was the mysterious Goddess of Witchcraft & Necromancy who, despite the way many mortals feared her, she could have a compassionate side and took pity on Demeter's grief for her abducted daughter. Hecate posessed the keys for travelling to the Underworld, The Earth, and The Heavens and so with a torch in hand she told Demeter to follow her and led her to where Persephone was.

After Persephone ate half the pomegranite and it was agreed she would spend half the year on earth with her mother and the other in the underworld with her husband, Hecate was appointed as a personal attendant to the new Underworld Queen and would advice the inexperienced goddess on how to rule as a Queen in the realm of the dead.

It's also believed that Hecate, because she posesses the keys to travel in-between realms, accompanies Persephone whenever she leaves for the world of the living to visit with her mother Demeter.

Hecate is a really fascinating Underworld Goddess herself. 8)

https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html

https://commonera.com/blogs/the-common- ... -the-crone

https://youtu.be/mSS7Uq2h4NU?si=jTzylZqqlfo-ILfG


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22 Mar 2024, 8:59 am

Also another interesting thing I have noticed in regards to both Ereshkigal and Persephone. They were both kidnapped and brought to the Underworld against their will where they were forced to become Underworld Goddesses. And yet despite how they initially hated being brought down to such a gloomy place neither one was willing to reliquinsh their position of power as an established Queen of the Dead.

Look at how Ereshkigal punished her sister Inanna when she tried to steal her throne, and Persephone herself became very comfortable with her new husband Hades after a while and it was clear that she no longer wanted to leave the Underworld for more than half the year to be with her mother. In the Underworld one could argue that she recognized that she held more power and influence as a true queen by her husband's side.


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DazyDaisy
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23 Mar 2024, 3:57 am

It took me some time to read the content from links you attached, I am not as educated as you regarding these specific Gods and can't comment right away. From what I red you were so right about similarities among all of them that, to me, they look as if they are the same Gods in different cultures. And, again, it imposes me a question whether these are really just mere coincidences or certain myths traveled across the globe together with portion of people who were nomads and constantly migrating..?

Yesterday I came across your comment about your ancestor who used traditional Polynesian techniques to navigate his boat across the Ocean. That's really a fascinating story and it confirms my presumptions that people, ancient people and indigenous people, who preserved ancient ways of life, always traveled across the globe, but since they were not concquerors their name was never written down in history books although they probably knew about distant shores and continents, let's say, before Columbus, Marco Polo, etc. Glad the name of your ancestor is listed at least in Wikipedia.

On the other side I can not know for sure that those similarities are really just pure coincidencies, because maybe natural forces made same spiritual and religious impacts on people's believes, both in Japan and let's say here, in Balkans (or anywhere else). For example, in a Slavic pantheon of Gods, there's a God Dabiživ who is very similar to a Japanese God Izanagi - both of them created other deities from their tears and body parts.

Otherwise, all three stories just confirmed to me what I was intuitively guessing that these specific Gods are representing natural forces, annual seasons, death and (re)birth - for ancient people it was probably easier to interpret and visualize these forces as Gods that look like human beings. I also guess all of them were later incorporated even in Christianity. But that's another (long) story.


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23 Mar 2024, 9:49 am

Quote:
It took me some time to read the content from links you attached, I am not as educated as you regarding these specific Gods and can't comment right away. From what I red you were so right about similarities among all of them that, to me, they look as if they are the same Gods in different cultures. And, again, it imposes me a question whether these are really just mere coincidences or certain myths traveled across the globe together with portion of people who were nomads and constantly migrating..?


I'm not really a true scholar (I have much more to learn on these different religions myself to be honest), but I personally think it's a mix of both. Some religions like those found in Mesopotamia made their way to Ancient Greece and other parts of Europe, Asia, and Africa (after all they were one of if not the first founders of human civilization). But I think there's also cases where humans who are spread so far apart evolve over time to believe in the same things regarding the world around them.

Maybe the reason there are so many Underworld Goddesses to be found in ancient polytheist religions is because of the fact that in ancient times stillbirths as well as mothers dying in childbirth were so common that it gave early humans a kind of fear that their women weilded a power of not only giving life but also giving death too?

Like in the case of Izanagi becoming the Japanese Underworld Goddess after giving birth to the God of Fire and being burned and torn to pieces.

And again like Persephone she is a goddess of duality. A creation goddess who gave life aa well as an underworld goddess who watches over the dead. :flower: :skull:


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DazyDaisy
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23 Mar 2024, 12:15 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Quote:
It took me some time to read the content from links you attached, I am not as educated as you regarding these specific Gods and can't comment right away. From what I red you were so right about similarities among all of them that, to me, they look as if they are the same Gods in different cultures. And, again, it imposes me a question whether these are really just mere coincidences or certain myths traveled across the globe together with portion of people who were nomads and constantly migrating..?


I'm not really a true scholar (I have much more to learn on these different religions myself to be honest), but I personally think it's a mix of both. Some religions like those found in Mesopotamia made their way to Ancient Greece and other parts of Europe, Asia, and Africa (after all they were one of if not the first founders of human civilization). But I think there's also cases where humans who are spread so far apart evolve over time to believe in the same things regarding the world around them.

Maybe the reason there are so many Underworld Goddesses to be found in ancient polytheist religions is because of the fact that in ancient times stillbirths as well as mothers dying in childbirth were so common that it gave early humans a kind of fear that their women weilded a power of not only giving life but also giving death too?

Like in the case of Izanagi becoming the Japanese Underworld Goddess after giving birth to the God of Fire and being burned and torn to pieces.

And again like Persephone she is a goddess of duality. A creation goddess who gave life aa well as an underworld goddess who watches over the dead. :flower: :skull:


I find interesting the paragraph I bolded and underlined. I also guess that ancient people were really very puzzled with the whole maternity thing, like both pregnancy and giving a birth. It must have been a miracle to them (though I admit it will always be a kind of miracle, only we know more about it today.)

Here in Serbia we have an stone idol from Lepenski Vir, with a fish-like mouth and it was long time believed that it was devoted to some river God ( Lepenski vir is situated on the shore of Danube river). But later some archeologists offered another opinion on it - that the stone actually represent a woman giving a birth and that lips ends pointed downward, actually, express the pain of giving the childbirth.

I also forgot to mention Morana, Mora or Mara, the Slavic Goddess of death and Underworld, but also of winter. It is also interesting the similarities between the words "Nightmare" in English and "Noćna mora" in Serbian/Croatian.

So definitely, it seems that there are similarities all across the world, some of them developed independently and some were inhereted from other cultures, but interpreted in specific ways.


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23 Mar 2024, 12:20 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Maybe the reason there are so many Underworld Goddesses to be found in ancient polytheist religions is because of the fact that in ancient times stillbirths as well as mothers dying in childbirth were so common that it gave early humans a kind of fear that their women weilded a power of not only giving life but also giving death too?


I think also, if you pray to something for protection from something that's high risk (like war or childbirth), the high rate of failing to provide protection (dying anyways) would lead to that entity being seen as more of a judge than a genuine protector.


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23 Mar 2024, 1:25 pm

DazyDaisy wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
Quote:
It took me some time to read the content from links you attached, I am not as educated as you regarding these specific Gods and can't comment right away. From what I red you were so right about similarities among all of them that, to me, they look as if they are the same Gods in different cultures. And, again, it imposes me a question whether these are really just mere coincidences or certain myths traveled across the globe together with portion of people who were nomads and constantly migrating..?


I'm not really a true scholar (I have much more to learn on these different religions myself to be honest), but I personally think it's a mix of both. Some religions like those found in Mesopotamia made their way to Ancient Greece and other parts of Europe, Asia, and Africa (after all they were one of if not the first founders of human civilization). But I think there's also cases where humans who are spread so far apart evolve over time to believe in the same things regarding the world around them.

Maybe the reason there are so many Underworld Goddesses to be found in ancient polytheist religions is because of the fact that in ancient times stillbirths as well as mothers dying in childbirth were so common that it gave early humans a kind of fear that their women weilded a power of not only giving life but also giving death too?

Like in the case of Izanagi becoming the Japanese Underworld Goddess after giving birth to the God of Fire and being burned and torn to pieces.

And again like Persephone she is a goddess of duality. A creation goddess who gave life aa well as an underworld goddess who watches over the dead. :flower: :skull:


I find interesting the paragraph I bolded and underlined. I also guess that ancient people were really very puzzled with the whole maternity thing, like both pregnancy and giving a birth. It must have been a miracle to them (though I admit it will always be a kind of miracle, only we know more about it today.)

Here in Serbia we have an stone idol from Lepenski Vir, with a fish-like mouth and it was long time believed that it was devoted to some river God ( Lepenski vir is situated on the shore of Danube river). But later some archeologists offered another opinion on it - that the stone actually represent a woman giving a birth and that lips ends pointed downward, actually, express the pain of giving the childbirth.

I also forgot to mention Morana, Mora or Mara, the Slavic Goddess of death and Underworld, but also of winter. It is also interesting the similarities between the words "Nightmare" in English and "Noćna mora" in Serbian/Croatian.

So definitely, it seems that there are similarities all across the world, some of them developed independently and some were inhereted from other cultures, but interpreted in specific ways.



Indeed, childbirth and even the creation of all life itself on Earth is one of the greatest mysteries of life. It's no wonder that ancient civilizations often attributed the creation of the earth to primordial female deities like Tiamat and Gaia. Earth creating the miracle of life does feel rather "motherly". :nerdy:

funeralxempire wrote:
I think also, if you pray to something for protection from something that's high risk (like war or childbirth), the high rate of failing to provide protection (dying anyways) would lead to that entity being seen as more of a judge than a genuine protector.


That makes sense, or like in the case of "evil" goddesses like Eris or Lamashtu they get blamed directly for those things. Eris enjoyed causing war, violence, and calamity just for her own amusement like she did in the Trojan war. Lamashtu on the other hand had no real reason for killing pregnant mothers and their children, or sexually preying on men in their sleep, or spreading plagues and violent storms. She synbolized evil existing purely for evil's sake, unlike most other deities who at least had some sort of reason behind the bad things they did even if it was something as petty as a mortal angering them.

Here's an intetesting article about Lamashtu who inspired both Lilith in early Judiasm and Lamia in Greek Mythology.

https://oldworldgods.com/mesopotamian/lamashtu-goddess/

Also Eris

https://oldworldgods.com/greeks/eris-gr ... f-discord/

But yeah Lamashtu and Eris both had zero redeeming qualities as goddeses, had no temples of worship, and represented evil just for the sake of evil to explain how life can sometimes be cruel with no actual reason behind it. I find that fascinating too. :nerdy:


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23 Mar 2024, 2:21 pm

I have found an interesting article about counterfeit ritual that worked well against Lamashtu, a truly horrific Goddess:

https://blackwitchcoven.com/lamashtu-the-demoness-that-kills-children/

It all reminds me of black and white magic of Wallachians in Eastern Serbia. They are well known after their specific skills in voodoo like magic, throwing curses, falling into trans state of mind and seeing past and future events that way, but also after their shamanic healing rituals with water and lead, forecasting future from animal liver, etc.,etc. They are mostly descendants of Dacians..


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23 Mar 2024, 2:36 pm

DazyDaisy wrote:
I have found an interesting article about counterfeit ritual that worked well against Lamashtu, a truly horrific Goddess:

https://blackwitchcoven.com/lamashtu-the-demoness-that-kills-children/

It all reminds me of black and white magic of Wallachians in Eastern Serbia. They are well known after their specific skills in voodoo like magic, throwing curses, falling into trans state of mind and seeing past and future events that way, but also after their shamanic healing rituals with water and lead, forecasting future from animal liver, etc.,etc. They are mostly descendants of Dacians..


Thanks a lot for sharing this! 8)

Yeah what's really interesting to me is how you had these two terrible demons in Ancient Medopotamia, Lamashtu and Pazuzu (yes the exact same Pazuzu who posessed young Regan in "The Exorcist" was based on a very real demon), who because of the fact that they were sworn enemies, and Pazuzu's nature did not involve directly harming mothers and children like it did his rival Lamashtu, the Mesopotamians basically viewed Pazuzu as a true "lesser of two evils" and would invoke his power against Lamashtu for the sake of protecting their women and children.

Reminds me of the Democrat and Republican parties here in the United States. :mrgreen:


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23 Mar 2024, 2:40 pm

Speaking of The Exorcist, here's a youtube music video using the theme "Tubular Bells" and clips from this true horror classic.

It's often regarded as one of the greatest horror films of all time.

https://youtu.be/FN6jIvKiYOs?si=htvWEtZE2SlgwVOS


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23 Mar 2024, 3:10 pm

Yes, I was also confused to read that another demon, like Pazuzu, was asked to protect mothers and babies in their wounds (or newborn babies) from the Lamashtu's evil eye. Even further they did not pray to some all goody good deity but they turned to black and white magic to fight her evil influence instead.

As for the demons or evil spirits...brrr..I'm even afraid to mention them. Because I think that there is something, some kind of really bad energies that can sometimes possess people. In kabbalah/Judaism you are not even allowed to pronounce their names, at least not loud. But strangely, also the God's name is forbidden to be pronounced loudly and most of the time when Jewish people talk or write about God they would just refer to him with the "G" letter.

I never watch horror movies :) , I'm too scared and I easily get so scared that I have nightmares for days. But I managed to watch this video, with my eyes peaking through my fingers :).


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23 Mar 2024, 3:24 pm

DazyDaisy wrote:
Yes, I was also confused to read that another demon, like Pazuzu, was asked to protect mothers and babies in their wounds (or newborn babies) from the Lamashtu's evil eye. Even further they did not pray to some all goody good deity but they turned to black and white magic to fight her evil influence instead.

As for the demons or evil spirits...brrr..I'm even afraid to mention them. Because I think that there is something, some kind of really bad energies that can sometimes possess people. In kabbalah/Judaism you are not even allowed to pronounce their names, at least not loud. But strangely, also the God's name is forbidden to be pronounced loudly and most of the time when Jewish people talk or write about God they would just refer to him with the "G" letter.

I never watch horror movies :) , I'm too scared and I easily get so scared that I have nightmares for days. But I managed to watch this video, with my eyes peaking through my fingers :).



Hehe sorry about that... I sometimes forget that not everyone likes horror movies like I do. :oops:

And yes it does seem rather bizarre to invoke one demon to protect against another, but it also makes sense when you think of the Mesopotamian religious beliefs itself. Lamashtu was more than just a demon, as the daughter of the supreme god Anu she was still technically a goddess herself (although a very unpopular and malefic one). So therefor she was under the protection of the other gods.

But because Pazuzu was a demon too just like Lamashtu that meant he did not abide by the authority and rules of their gods and felt he could do whatever he wanted, and what he wanted more than anything was to hurt Lamashtu whom he hated with a passion.

Like fighting fire with fire basically. :)


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23 Mar 2024, 3:36 pm

Oh no don't worry :D , it was just a video!!

Yeah , we would say here "They fit together as horns in a sack." :evil: :twisted:


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