Disorder?

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Okay, all of this just came out of this thread, and I will be borrowing some quotes from people who are in disagreement with me to start the fight off right.

The suggestion was made that when an autistic person is having difficulties communicating with a neurotypical person, the problem exists on both sides, because neither knows how to communicate with the other. I think this is hooey, because built into it is the assumption that there is "nothing wrong" with the autistic person, and that the NT person is just as much in error.

I am willing to say flat out that I have a disorder. I ain't right. I is broke. I have no shame about it, but that's pretty much how it is. I am grateful that I am not more impaired, as I am able to support myself and my family, but I am deeply impacted by my disability.

Here is a brief snippet of that exchange:

What this seems to me to suggest is that, without a master blueprint to consult, you can't define something as not working properly. By this same argument, a baby born with no limbs and only half of its brain can be described as perfectly fine, because you can't say that's not the way it's supposed to be. (Advice: don't make this argument around the baby's mother. )

Now as far as evidence-- can we agree to stick to the scientific aspect and leave the Divine out of it? I could take the argument down that path, but I can't really see that any good could come out of it.

There are a lot of arguments that can be made about normal brains, but that just gets into a fight over the word "normal" and then someone will accuse me of saying that left-handed people are "disabled", and I'll have to clarify my phrasing, and we'll go round and round.... but there's one argument that you can't beat.

Autism interferes with the ability of a person to reproduce. There are a lot of things that get in the way of finding a mate and passing along one's code, which is a genetic imperative we (or at least most of us) still feel.

Okay, let's open the table for disagreement!

Autistic Spectrum Disorders
Asperger's Disorder
Autistic Disorder
Rett's Disorder
PDD-NOS
CDD

Dangit, in taking my side, you just showed me that my argument is not, in fact, one that "you can't beat."

Homosexuals were once considered to have a disorder. I don't agree with that, but I am forced to admit that it also interferes with the person's ability to reproduce.

It's explicitly obvious that there's a stark difference between sexual orientation and the most severe developmental disability in children (its "milder" cousin too).

One is objectively a difference, the other is a disorder.

Whether autism is a disorder or a difference tomorrow depends on whether everyone with autism can interact, learn, and work like everyone else [without a disorder]. If not, it's still a disorder.

For the record, I agree with the point you made in your first reply, as well as what you're saying here. But I've been in a very engaging debate with people who do not agree with that. Their point is that "like everyone else" is not necessarily "like it's supposed to be." I think this is hooey, but just saying so is a poor refutation.

Disorder means something that is not in order. With AS/HFA, it seems that some with it can live fully independent lives, some semi-independent and some fully dependent on other people. To say that AS/HFA is a 'disorder', in my opinion, completely depends on the individual.
Although, I would consider those with more severe Autism to have a 'disorder' as quite simply, they may not be able to take care of themselves very well, nor communicate with others effectively...and this of course would make every day tasks, sometimes harder. This is not meant as an insult to those with MFA/LFA, but just how I see it.

that is how am see it to,am do not see it as an insult,though for some LFAers [especially those with a lot of MR] they can have a good life and not have anything to bother about and theyre well supported,in some ways that is less disorder than say an aspie who is struggling and is unsupported.

though think it is impossible to say any of the spectrum is not a disorder at the moment because they are all listed under autism spectrum disorders,saying it's not a disorder when its listed as one doesnt make sense to am.

This is interesting.

Only last week I was saying (to the one friend I have "come out" as an Aspie to) that I didn't regard myself as "disabled", just "differently abled", i.e. I can't do some of the things that most people can do, but I can do things that they can't.

This last point is the flaw in your argument - how about those things that aspies are better at - the things that we "just know" whereas most NT's are totally mystified about how we workined it out that quick?

And as for the analogy with homosexuality - I don't follow your argument. The way I see it, either AS & homosexuality are both "disorders", or neither of them are. I don't see how you can believe one is & one isn't using the criteria you are using.

My eight-year old will not allow the word "disorder" in our vocabulary--what does this tell you?

No, it is not a disorder. The disorder is bred out of the lack of acceptance for differences in our society. If someone has sensory issues, they just do. If they have difficulty connecting to others, so be it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that many of the defecits can be remedied when push comes to shove--in amazing ways. My grandmother used to say "this to shall pass" and most things do.

Some of our most brilliant thinkers were quirky and probably on the spectrum in some ways, but have overcome their adversity--why? Because they had to.

Do you truly think in a war torn country, or during the great depression, people had the time to sit around and discuss their particularities? Of course not. Everyone lived by a moral code and this was how you measured yourself--quirks and all. Maybe they kept their private lives---ahem--private.

You do what must be done.

I think we are too comfortable in the manner in which we discuss the bits and pieces of ourselves. I know that I DO NOT want my son to grow up like this. I'd rather he spend time on his interest, something objective outside himself--or even considering others (if possible). Many times, in one of his fits (not very common), I tell him that he's disturbing other people's peace--this, believe it or not, has worked. We need to consider others and respect their right to quiet and calm.

The less time on yourself, the better your will be emotionally and physically. The disorder, then, is considered so by the lack of acceptance of oddiites but becomes a true disorder when the person with AS does not strive to overcome the deficits and instead acquiesces and appears, well, strange to others as they spin around, bite their clothes, make odd grimaces, mutter to themselves etc. This, honestly, is freaky to other people. It makes people feel unsettled. I was just at the town pool and a woman was muttering to herself (older) and she gave me the creeps. She had a little boy with her and another woman. I wondered--how is she taking care of this boy? She was short with him and it scared me. It is a true disorder, then, when it spills out into society and the adult can no longer manage it.

A lower functioning autistic person does, I believe, have a disorder--they are not able to function without assistance, and can not perform basic functions associated with survival. The goal should be to overcome adversity, dibilitating quirks that draw attention or interfere with basic functioning so that you are not considered a person with a disorder.

Maybe a person with Aspergers has a better chance due to his/her high cognitive functioning. Nevertheless, when a person with AS is concerned about biting and walks around with a rubber toy in his/her mouth, there's a problem with too much acceptance and what might be quirky is now debilitating because that older adult has not learned to manage this urge or desire to bite.

Hans Asperger defined it as a high functioning person and so it seems that this person should be able to work towards overcoming outward signs that might scare others.

In all honesty, my own son draws attention with the way he hums, moves, you name it. But, I don't think he scares others--he just appears intriguing to others. They usually smile. Kids, though, stare. I think they wonder about him.

equinn (day off today--can't you tell)

I actually don't think you can quote me as having a side on an argument like this, because I consider the argument about "Is autism a disorder or a difference?" kind of pointless and prefer not to get drawn into it (so I will vote for the third option and ask that my words not be used to justify either side of this thing). Even asking the question requires arguing from a worldview I don't share.

See #3.

People can think what they like, it doesn't mean it's right.

2. A breach of civic order or peace; a public disturbance.


I think this is the one that is most interesting and applicable to our understanding what is truly a disorder. Society defines it.

equinn

Still, that doesn't quite define when AS is a disorder and when it is not.

There are many shades between those two extremes you mentioned equinn. I think that diversity of the 'Asperger's spectrum' itself is the very thing that sparks controversy.

I'm AS, by professionals found to be most hf AS and still fail to overcome many issues. I don't do anything odd in public, I'm quite a role model (if I may say so) but still appear creepy to everybody because I'm 'somehow somewhat different but can't pinpoint what's scary'. Haha, I guess there's many ways to scare people.

Whether to declare AS a disorder or not depends whether one looks from the 'almost non-(society-)impaired' or the 'severely impaired' side of the spectrum.

With online communities, it's more fitting to look from the most 'hf' side. A huge percentage of people are most hf on websites, so naturally that's the main point of view. But in real life, I experience the situation turned around by 180°. Most people are way way 'more lf' than me where I live as opposed to me who is compared to them 'extremely hf'. Naturally, the point of view is another here. AS is considered a disorder by the prevalence of impaired individuals.

As of now, I don't think this debate will find an end. There no studies on how much people really are hf or lf. People can only guess and base their assumptions on what they have experienced themselves.

On top of that, the only possibility to officially be autistic is currently a medical one that requires significant impairment. There is no officially recognised compromise on the many individuals that are not significantly impaired can still be 'autistic'.

I think that's another cause for the controversy around the term disorder. Autism is, as of now, only very roughly defined. But of course, society's opinion of 'either all or nothing' strongly influences any medical definition too.

Like, either you have full AS or you don't have anything... which we know is pretty much... eh, crap.

Edit: Completed a sentence. I just kinda missed that half-sentence in there.

Last edited by Sora on 15 Apr 2008, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

The problem here is that we are toying with semantics. The purpose of a label, at least from an educational stand point, is to provide services that a student needs to be successful. Thus, most labels include the words "disorder" or "syndrome" or "handicapped". The complexity of ASD's gives more flexibility to what the services are that given to students.

Frankly, I don't care if you call me or my son purple with yellow and green spots. But when we require help and we are at a level to ask for it and need it, I want it given to us without a bunch of red tape and bureaucratic nonsense.

If we all agree that AS gives us an impaired social interaction to whatever extent that it does, some being more or less severe than others, what does it matter what we call it. By virtue of the symptoms, there is impaired interactions.

I also take some offense to people who jump on the PC boat. I am not a person with autism or Asperger's. I am an AS adult and my son is an AS kid and I will admit it and even wear it on a t-shirt if necessary. It is part of who I am and it makes up my personality and the wonderful person that I am. I'm not differently abled, either. I'm just me.

Another issue that I have: if you are anywhere on the spectrum and you don't think your brain is wired differently, you are disabled by your denial.

What does this mean to us as members of society? At some point, society will have to learn to live with us as much as we will have to learn to live with society. Only we can change how we are veiwed in society's eyes.

Last edited by Liverbird on 15 Apr 2008, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Asperger's Syndrome. A syndrome is a collection of symptoms, not a disorder per se.

My personal opinion is that AS is not a disorder. But the majority of people insist on seeing it as such, so it might as well be.