I've never had.....

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.....a good looking woman talk to me, never mind as an equal. That is apart from a recent web friend thats gone stum on me. I'm fifty and it would be nice before I die to be a) treat as an equal (ha!) .....b) have a little of the barriers de-frosted. It will never happen! Yet I can give more of an intelligent conversation than most - yet its not what i say - it must seem how I say it? I dunno. I notice a lot of social stuff revolves around the cooing and BS that is exchanged and of course the vast array of social hierachy and cliques that abound. So its all BS really and I DON'T want to belong as its impossible anyway! So I refuse to recognise such hierachies at all.

Okay then, since we're the same age, I'll give it to you straight up, and no chaser...

If you want to be approached, then be approachable. Smile, even when no one seems to be looking. Relax; a drink in one hand and the other hand in your pocket indicates that you are interested in the moment, and not in that *&^%$#@! who cut you off on the freeway.

If you want people to be interested in you, then be interesting. Determine the kind of people you want to attract, and become or do whatever it is that would attract them. Read the newspaper, including the op-ed section. Read "Pride & Prejudice" and "Sense & Sensibility" to find out what romance may be like to some women. Ther is nothing romantic about the latest box scores, or which player is being traded to what team.

If you want to be loved, then be lovable. This means doing some of that "cooing and *&^%$#@!" that you despise so much. Think of it as an empathetical performance, and that the award you receive will be the interest of a beautiful woman. Never snort in derision when a woman is expressing her feelings. Instead, try to look concerned and ask something like "That seems to upset you, but why?" or "That would hurt me too; but what to do about it?" - short, open-ended statements that require more than a 'No' or 'Yes' to respond.

Finally, if you want to have friends, be friendly. If you constantly give the impression of contempt or hostility for making friendly overtures, then people will avoid you. If you act like you are already friends, then people - even strangers - will open up to you. Just be careful not to be too friendly, as too much familiarity in too short of a time will give you the reputation as a wierdo. Keep your arms uncrossed, and lean slightly into their space, but don't tower over them.

I've learned to approach a strange group of people as if they were already my friends - I say 'Hello' and ask how they are; I toss out a few kernals of conversation like "Parking sure is easy/hard tonight" or "The beach/movie/seminar was great" or "Anyone know when we're going to eat?" This is also called "Making Small Talk."

Verbal communication is important, especially to NTs, and most particularly those NTs who seem to be on the upscale side of life - although they seem to do more listening than talking.

Eye contact is also important, especially to NTs. Not the quarter-mile stare of a predator stalking its prey, but the kind, soft look that siblings might give each other - the one that says, "I understand ... I'm here if you need to talk ... I'm listening."

There is so much more to it than that, but it should get you started.

Wow, thats a lot.

'the vast array of social hierachy and cliques that abound.' 'So I refuse to recognise such hierachies at all.'

I completely agree with your observations, I noticeit in the little ineractions I engage in, as an outsider.

I agree with much of the advise given by fnord on being friendly, but true friendship and being 'in relation' with others does necessitate we transcend all these hierachies and pride games, that guard insecurities.

Maybe being impersonal, a nobody, literally taking a 'nothing sticks' attitude helps, I know it is difficult, but it is a virtue we should strive for, to humble ourselves, especially as we struggle towards an end -- a mission we strive for in life. So when others demand no equality in ineraction, ignore it, and do that old thing 'kill them with kindness', hence breaking barriers.

But never give in to social hierachy and cliques that abound! That's just my personal opinion.

One way to get in is to join a group that's doing something that you really care about. I'm on the board of trustees at a local non-profit. I suppose a church group could work if you're into that sort of thing. If you're just looking for a date, I have no advice. But with a mission-oriented group, they should value your input and show some respect.

Some form of "social hierachy" exists everywhere. In a lot of groups, you have no chance of moving up. However, in a good group that's really doing something that matters, you would have a chance to prove yourself over time. Go with your strengths, pay your dues and they will appreciate you for those areas where you can shine.

Join a group - been thro that - NEVER NEVER NEVER! Tho I quite like this one here.

So don't bother then. If it's worth it to you, do the work. If not, find a way to live with what you've got.

I pick up on this attitude RIGHT AWAY in men, and it comes off to me as them begging Mommy for lovin' then blaming her and having a tantrum when she doesn't treat them as an equal. Being taken seriously and being desired for good conversation require a lot of contribution.

Genuine gratefulness and recognition of others' contribution helps, too. Fnord very generously put together a really succinct, highly valuable summary of top tips for you. Looking at how you reacted to that, I have to admit I'm only replying out of annoyance at this attitude in so many men, AS, NT, you name it.

Look at the book _Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man_ by Scott Wetzel. It's written for women, but might help you understand how your approach comes off.

What did you try?
What was the purpose of the group?

"Begging mommy for loving" - wow have you got it wrong. That cow threw me out at seventeen after my Dad died, i could never stand the woman. Lies and deceit from day one.

Actually thinking about it she was a stunning woman and a total cow. Lieing, manipulative, self centred, scheming. Looks huh! ......

Perhaps thats why makeup on a woman and certain perfumes are so deeply unattractive to me. My wife of thirty years luckily never needs makeup.

No, group activities face to face are not for me. The opposite of pleasure to me. To respond to Tahitiii - they were specialist groups of several sorts, seemed to attract odd types odder than me. I always wondered why two thirds of them bothered to turn up. Baffling. But then agn me being who I am I was seldom 'enjoying' the procedure.

Actually with the group activity thing after what school was like for me my reaction is 'you must be joking'!

'No YOU never get over it' - your words have hurt me (aspi sensitivity on my part). I believe you have mis-read these brief words of mine. Hearing your words I can smell womens perfume - odd phenomena.

I shall potter along in my life as i do now, striving to do my best at whatever i do, being honest, improving myself and helping others as I can. Which is actually what I do anyway.

To get back to the topic which I feel is turning into a sour exchange i appreciate the lengthy response from Fnord, thankyou, you made a big effort. Its odd, that when I have my business hat on I function perfectly. Equally, with fellow dog walkers I get on very well, male, female, any age. I shall appreciate the person for themselves and ignore looks, good or bad.

I still insist on my original observation that an unusually good looking female often can have a certain manner and vibe that I personally often can find offensive. Like sort of defensive wall plus plus.

I've no more to say on what initially was a more lighthearted post. You must remember that a lot of my life pattern and interaction is tempered by my own aspi survival mechanism, borne by all sorts of events and situations that happened to me. luckily all the negative crap is behind me and since self diagnosing ten years ago I have engineered my life to how it suits me.

Sorry to change the subject, but this is one of by big questions, and I don't know how to phrase it.

A lot of survival (defense) mechanisms (probably most) involve going into denial and/or hurting other people.
Often steping on others in a feeble attempt to be king of the hill. (Stockholm syndrome, homophobia, bullying in general...)

"Ablomov" acknowledges an emotional reaction (alergy?) but it's not unconscious and is therefore unlikely to do harm.

I had a rotten childhood. So did a lot of people.
I think the difference for me was that I was never able to go into denial. I was awake the whole time. It was like having a root canal with no anesthesia every day.
Everyone else found ways to anesthetize themselves. They were damaged as much as I was, but it's underground and comes out in ways that the individual does not understand.
He thinks he's "gotten over it," but his method depends on becoming part of the problem and passing the disease on to others.
(My stress comes out in other ways, mainly in odd, psychosomatic symptoms that resemble a mini-stroke.)

My question: Is this immunity an Aspie trait? Or a separate, unrelated variable?

I see some mindless knee-jerking, even on this board, which seems to argue against my idea that my immunity is an Aspie trait.

Does anyone understand my question?

Last edited by Tahitiii on 04 Aug 2008, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Start of second para - can we replace defence with the word survival? Thats of course if I'm allowed to be involved with this discussion?

Third para loses me. Allergy? No, makeup on a woman (mother throwback) to me signals trouble.

I'm lost - cannot follow pse elucidate.