Adrian Veidt: Hero or Villain?

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So, whether you're a fan of the movie or the comic version of Watchmen, the burning question is this: Is Ozymandias a mass murdering fiend or the savior of all mankind?

Tricky question. I'm going to lean more towards villain, because I'd have to believe a man of such superior intellect could have found an alternative means to accomplish the goal...though not easy of course.

I think it's a trick question. One of the major themes of Watchmen seems to be that real life isn't as black and white as most superhero franchises make it out to be, with their dichotomies of "good" and "evil", "hero" and "villain". In the real world, people have all sorts of motivations behind their actions, some altruistic and some destructive, and both urges coexist inside each of us. The best answer I can offer to satisfy the question is, Ozymandias was both: a mass-murderer and a savior.

I agree.

Come now... You guys can't get off that easy. Certainly Ozy is literally both a mass murderer and savior (at least in the short term). And sure, motives matter....

BUT the real issue here is, is it okay to murder millions of people in order to save thousands of millions?

If so, how does one become qualified to decide who lives and who dies?

How did Ozy justly become the arbiter of who lives and who dies?

I'd say he's a complete moron who's plan only worked because the plot fairy said it did. He is not only a Villain, but he is the worst (in the sense that he his terribly written) villain of all time, and also the most overrated villain of all time, just barely beating out emporer palpatine for both "awards".

How did President Truman become the arbiter of who lives and dies when he dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Similar situation, similar result, difference is the scale and the public nature of Truman's decision. If Rorschach had no trouble with Truman nuking Japan, he shouldn't have had trouble with Ozymandias using Squidly-Diddly. Of course, he did. Part of the reason (I think) why was that one, Rorschach detests Ozymandias, and two, he would probably not have cared if Ozymandias did it in another country (the movie notwithstanding). That, and the fact that Truman did it as part of war. Who knows what goes on in Rorschach's head?

One of the themes of Watchmen is, how do any of these people have the right to be arbiters of justice? Some do it for the hell of it, others did it for sexual fulfillment, others loved the carnage, a couple do it because they were compelled to do it (Laurie was pressured by her mother, and Dr Manhattan was pretty much propelled by predestiny and the US government), and a few (the two Nite Owls, Captain Metropolis, though he had rather abhorrent views, and maybe Rorschach at first) do it to bring criminals to justice.

Uh, have you only watched the film? Ozymandias was admittedly a weaker character in the film than he was in the comic. Although if anything, his plot was more straightforward and less complex in the film than in the comic, and thus a little less likely to fail. But he was a much stronger character in the comic in terms of writing and characterisation.

I doubt a single squid-thing would be enough to convince people that they where being invaded by aliens. Plus, genetic testing could prove it wasn't an alien. what's to keep the russians from thinking "the evil americans engineered a squid monster to fight alongside Dr. Manhattan and lost control of it! We must nuke them before they build another monstrosity!" What's to stop the americans from thinking "The Russians engineered a giant squid thing as an awnser to Dr. Mahattan! We must nke them before they make another one!" It would have taken years to make that squid thing which means that he's been planning this fiasco for a very long time. so Ozy is alledgedly the smartest and also the richest man in the world, AND he knows all the world's greatest superheros, and I'm expected to believe that with all this time and reasources, and all the intelligence he posseses, that best idea he can come up with is "I make a giant squid to kill millions of people!"? really? I mean REALLY?

And the difference is Truman didn't blame the bombs on aliens.

^^^

The Truman analogy is apt to a point, but Truman was a principal party to a social contract with the people of the United States--He was president and commander-in-chief of the armed forces...

Surely that gives him a bit more legitimacy than Adrian Veidt?

I agree that one of the themes of Watchmen has to do with the question of who has the right to dole out justice...

The answer is a bit slippery, I think.

Ozymandias is reputedly the world's smartest man. Scott Adams once wrote, when talking about one of his Dilbert characters, a genius garbageman, how are we supposed to understand the motivation of the world's smartest man becoming a garbageman? Should we question the motivation?

In other words, Ozymandias' genius is his own authority. I'm not saying that it makes his solution the right thing. Or that he is infallible. If he was infallible, Rorschach and Nite Owl would probably have died in New York. They probably would not have found out that Ozymandias was behind it.

Legitimate authority is irrelevant to most superheroes and vigilantes in any case. There really aren't that many superheroes, in either DC or Marvel continuity who actually operate with legitimate authority and government backing, especially in the DC universe (discounting the Green Lanterns, of course). There seem to be more government-sponsored or allowed superheroes in the Marvel universe.



Of course.

And Tensu, Ozymandias is worried about whether his scheme would work. He even asks Dr Manhattan whether everything would work out. Whether his scheme will fall to bits is one of the biggest questions in Watchmen.

Oh, and Truman did probably blame the bomb on aliens, technically. I'd say that he blamed it on Japanese belligerence. 'Alien' does mean foreigner.

Still, I have to believe with all the smarts, money, and time he had, he could have come up with something better. Like, off the top of my head, an armoda of missile-carrying submarines to shoot down any nukes fired across the pacific. Not a perfect idea perhaps, but thats with twenty seconds worth of thought. the smartest man in the world had years to come up with a plan that didn't kill millions of people.

and you know what I ment when I said "aliens".

Aren't I allowed to engage in some wordplay?

Oh yes, certainly. But something like a or a to indicate you're being funny as opposed to being a smart-*** is helpful. It's hard to tell the difference when looking at text

I can be both a smart-arse and harmlessly facetious simultaneously. There's a difference between being a smart-arse who deliberately sets out to belittle people, and one who just wants to be humourous in a cut above usual forum fare. It's not immediately apparent, but it's there.

As for smileys, they are so overused. I avoid them unless I really want to use them. Abuse of smileys (as is often the case on a BBS) should be a capital offence.

ANFSCD. Here is something where Ozymandias is unambiguously a hero.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w[/youtube]

Oh I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just more use to the type who like to belittle people for inane things, so letting me know that you're not that type is helpful.

and I saw that a long time ago.