Aspergers Vs Borderline Personality Disorder?

Post Reply New Topic

I have come across several female who are now Dxd as AS but had formerly beein DXd with bpd... It does seem that some of the features occur in both of these, which can be very confusing... I am wondering if the two can co-exist since one is neurological and one is apparently more a form of PTSD. This link interested me when I came across it...


http://www.laurapaxton.com/

One of my very best friends ever has BPD. I don't really think I see many similarities between me and her, atleast not in a neurological sense. She often has a hard time making eye contact and stuff like that, and struggled with depression and self-harm for a long time.


Just thought I'd chime in for what its worth; this is just one person's take on the issue.

I'm male and an undiagnosed Aspie. I don't recall any specific incidents that would cause PTSD, like childhood abuse, for example. But to what extent is BPD "apparently more a form of PTSD" ?

This might answer a few questions...there are, undeniably shared traits, or traits that can come to resemble one another...for example, strong anger is common to both bpd and AS, difficulties in relationships and social interraction are known in both AS and bpd, self harming is known among those with bpd and AS, unstable moods can be as much a feature for those with AS as those with bpd especially if there is a co-morbid of bi polar...so where is the line drawn? AS can mimic Bpd well enough that those with AS, especially females, have been misdiagnosed with bpd, but is it possible that someone with AS could develop bpd as a result of childhood trauma? Although it has been posited that there might be a genetic link involved in some cases of bpd, most I have come across have a history of of abuse in one form or another...bpd is even being suggested to be another form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and I have come across a fair few aspies who are Dxd with PTSD as well as AS... it is rather a conundrum, I feel...

Here is another link that compares AS with Bpd...it is obviously starting to get noticed because there are a few psychological papers on this out there.

http://www.aapel.org/asp/AGaspergerornotUS.html

I fit the symptoms of BPD. But I am also DXed with AS. So it's confusing Graelwyn. >.>

My mother has AS and BPD.

It is VERY rare that these two co-exist together,but it CAN happen.


-SpaceCase

I was Dxd with Bpd almost 10 years ago, but me, make frantic efforts to avoid being alone?????? LOL. It was made based on the fact I had major meltdowns and self harmed, along with a history of anorexia. It is VERY confusing as they really do seem to clash... even the ones on that site listed as being Bpd and not AS are to be found in AS too. I did, for a time, display some of the bpd traits... I did have a major aversion to being totally isolated and when with my ex, I did not like it when he left me alone in this strange new place, and would react with anger when ignored in favour of his pc or amateur radio, but other than that... Everything for AS fits and has always fit, whereas the bpd traits have never entirely fit me...but I do have a history of sexual and emotional abuse behind me, so I do wonder if either bod symptoms masked the AS, or if simply AS traits were mistaken for bpd traits... argh.

I found the criteria for and a discussion of BFD, and made notes on those points that apply to me. My notes are in italics.

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.-- No. Frantic efforts to BE alone, yeah...

2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.-- No.

3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self. - No, no, NO.

4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.-- Only in one: substance abuse.

5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior - Suicidal ideation and self-mutilating behaviour.

6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). - No

7. chronic feelings of emptiness - No, unless suffering from depression

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) - Not unless under severe stress

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms- Somewhat, see explanation below


panic of fury when someone important to them is just a few minutes late- not panic, not fury, but definitely anxiety and annoyance

These abandonment fears are related to an intolerance of being alone and a need to have other people with them.- No, I prefer to be alone. The anxiety is because I had expected to be doing something at a certain time and am now not doing what I'd expected to be doing. I don't deal well with things not going to plan; I don't deal well with unexpected unstructured time.

. However, they may switch quickly from idealizing other people to devaluing them, feeling that the other person does not care enough, does not give enough, is not "there" enough.- My boyfriend seemed to have this problem with me a few months ago- I went from being the centre of his world to receiving complaints that I didn't care etc etc etc. I receive many "you don't care" complaints from people.

may at times have feelings that they do not exist at all.- Yes.... my whole "not-a-real-person" thing may have confused my psychiatrist... but that is nothing to do with not existing. Rather, it is to do with worries of never achieving independence, never having a job that isn't cash-in-hand, never owning a house or car, never getting a driver's licence, always feeling like I won't fit into the world, always being awkward and uncomfortable in social situations...
But I do know that I exist. [i/]

Such experiences usually occur in situations in which the individual feels a lack of meaningful relationship- [i]When you can go for days at a time and not speak one sentence to anyone outside of your immediate family, how else are you meant to feel? That feeling is not connected to to feeling like I don't exist, though. I exist.

They may gamble, spend money irresponsibly, binge eat, abuse substances, engage in unsafe sex, or drive recklessly.- Occasional substance abuse under severe stress.

Recurrent suicidality is often the reason that these individuals present for help. These self-destructive acts are usually precipitated by threats of separation or rejection or by expectations that they assume increased responsibility.- Yes, I sought help for DEPRESSION because I was on the verge of killing myself. My suicidal thoughts are precipitated by thoughts that I am going to fail at something or that the world is not a place where I would ever want to be.

Easily bored, they may constantly seek something to do- Yes. I hate being bored.

During periods of extreme stress, transient paranoid ideation or dissociative symptoms (e.g., depersonalization)- The paranoid ideation is not transient, and the dissociation doesn't have any obvious trigger. Extreme stress can trigger both of them, though.

regressing severely after a discussion of how well therapy is going- only once, and that was because I was actually struggling, only he hadn't seen it because he hadn't bothered to ask the right questions.

Individuals with this disorder may feel more secure with transitional objects (i.e., a pet or inanimate possession) than in interpersonal relationships- Relationships are more variable than objects. Why would you not feel more secure with an object?
Also, A PET IS NOT AN OBJECT!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!

===================

And the criteria for AS and how I fit it.

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (DSM IV)

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction,
as manifested by at least two of the following:

1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviours such
as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures
to regulate social interaction;

I have facial expressions. Sometimes. I have very muted body language, mainly because I cannot make most movements without thinking about them first. It is difficult enough to regulate conversation without having to worry about waving my arms around.
I don't always make eye contact. I will look in the general direction of a person's face. They mistake this for eye contact. If I am really concentrating on what a person is saying, I will not look at them. I hear better when I am only listening, not looking as well.

2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental
level;
I do have friends, but this does not mean that I don't struggle with social interaction. At university I am outsider when it comes to the social world. I talk to people on occasion, but almost never initiate interactions, and I do not see people from uni outside of uni or have a group of people who I know I can sit with in class, go to dinner with, work with in group work... most other people there seem to have these sort of relationships. I've been this way all my life.
Here are some examples of some of my friends:
My boyfriend: extremely introverted, non-social, with a genius IQ. (Introverted genius, to me, seems to look a lot like gifted autism. The social difficulties aren't as pronounced, though. He hates social situations but can deal well with them.)
My best friend: Diagnosed ADHD. ADD/ADHD have areas in common with Autism Spectrum disorders.
Friend who I share in common with my boyfriend: Diagnosed with Asperger's.
Other close friend: No disorders, but too good for her own good.
Other friend: sibling with autism and many autistic traits.

Not what you'd call 'normal' people, are they? And a lot of them have significant autistic traits. I am lucky to have found them. If I hadn't, I would have no friends and no idea of how to deal with people; because I STRUGGLE WHEN I HAVE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE IN THE GENERAL POPULATION.

3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests or
achievments with other people (eg: by a lack of showing, bringing,
or pointing out objects of interest to other people);

I don't really have this one. I think. I will share interesting information with those who I know are interested in it.

4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity.
Hmm... I show social and emotional reciprocity, but this is learned behaviour- I do it because it is expected. In most cases I cannot see what function it serves. NOTE: This was written a while ago, and I've come to realise recently that many of my interactions are NOT reciprocal- I will either be getting information from a person without offering anything of myself in return, or telling someone something I've learned or worked out without any need for their input.
And a note from my blog the next day: I was thinking... my friends will invite me to go out with them, but I never do the same in return. I am always getting in trouble for not calling people- it's only recently that I've managed to get through to people that if I don't call them , it isn't because I dislike them, it is usually because
1. I forgot.
2. I didn't realise how long it had been.
3. I was too busy being caught up in my interests.
4. I hate the telephone.

Early this month my friend Rebekah turned 22 so I called her to wish her a happy birthday. I was expecting to be in trouble for not called for 2-3 months, but she is very nice and was just happy that I'd remembered her birthday. (She's a close friend! I'm not going to forget something important like her birthday! Besides, birthdays are easy to remember. They happen at the same time each year.)
This sort of thing could be seen as a lack of social reciprocity, couldn't it?

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests,
and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and
restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity
or focus;

What do I talk about/what am I interested in?
music music music music music music music music autism autism music music music.

2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines
or rituals;
I eat my breakfast in a certain way. (5 bites of whatever I'm eating, 3 sips of drink. Repeat.)
I cannot eat without reading.
I always sit in the exact same seat in the classroom even if I have friends who are sitting elsewhere.
I sit in the same seat on the bus and in the same position in the carriage on the train.
I almost always walk out of university by going through the foyer on the second floor even if it would be quicker to walk out the door on the bottom floor.
I walk around my university in certain patterns even though I know that there are quicker ways of getting from place to place.
If I have a picture in my head of how a situation will go, and the situation differs, it disturbs me.
If I have been told by someone that we are going to do something such as going to a restaurant, and we they change their mind, it upsets me. And I let them know. And they think I am irrational, because after all, people are allowed to change their minds. I know this perfectly well. However, when things don't go the way I've been told they will, I get uncomfortable and anxious because it means that I cannot have any set of assumptions or expectations about how the universe should run.
I am sure there are others but I can't think of them.
3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (eg: hand or finger
flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements);
I tap my fingers.
I bite my fingers when thinking or nervous.
I was rocking before when thinking what to type.
I move my fingers back and forth when trying to think of what to say.
If I am very frustrated, I flap my hands.
I constantly shift around in my seat.
I tug on my hair and ears when I am thinking.
I rock when I am bored, or trying to work up the courage to say something in class or in a social situation.


4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
I don't have this one. I pay attention both to an object as a whole and to it's component parts.
C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social,
occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

It will cause problems in getting a job. I earn significantly less than most of my peers now because I don't have the social or organisational skills required to get a decent-paying part-time job. NOTE: I have 2 jobs now, one of them obtained through an actual JOB INTERVIEW. Very pleased with myself about that.
I have basically NO social life.
It causes emotional problems because I feel like an outsider, and sometimes I wish desperately that I had the same instinctive 'dealing-with-people' sense that most people have. Part of the reason why I was depressed in high school was because I kept asking myself the question "Why am I so smart in some ways but so dumb in others?"
Feeling like an outsider on my own planet makes me feel lonely and sad.
Knowing that I missed out on the "People and How to Interact With Them" manual that is hardwired into most people's brains is frustating and can make me angry. (I console myself by saying that I got the "How to Intuitively Understand Music and Be Good at It" manual. )
D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language
(eg: single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by
age 3 years).
Language was on time.

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in
the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behaviour
(other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in
childhood.
I meet this criteria.
F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental
Disorder, or Schizophrenia.

And this one.

I think right now there's a real issue emanating from diagnosing many disorders by behaviors alone and not knowing the genetics and neuroanatomy/chemistry behind them. But that's not something that can really be helped at the moment.

One problem is that some features which are classically associated with BPD (obsession over relationships and certain people and a general neediness and dependence) can also occur with other conditions. Many of the symptoms of BPD are often seen in Bipolar. And as mentioned in this thread so far, some can be seen in AS-- particularly in females. I, myself, at one point had the dx, albeit it was short-lived. But in my late grade school and high school years, I became Aspie obsessed with certain people. But there also was a neediness, a loneliness perhaps, I exhibited which made it seem more like a BPD obsession rather than a less emotional Aspie obsession. And since BPD is poorly defined and understood, and since many diagnosticians will take a few behaviors at face value as representative of the whole, I think BPD is diagnosed more often than it needs to be.

I think we Aspies can have rough lives, we can get lonely, and if at that point we turn our obsessive nature onto a person, we can become very attached, very pseudo-BPD. And I only say pseudo-BPD because I suspect the underlying genetic and neuroanatomical/chemical mechanisms are different despite that the behaviors can be similar.

Generally speaking, the traditional BPD is most often linked with childhood abuse-- and more usually mid to late childhood abuse (i.e., not beginning within the first few years of life). I don't know this information from personal experience, but my mother was a psychologist and specialized in trauma-based disorders and so from her practice experience, this was what she noticed.

The way I see it, behaviorally, there are several forms of BPD: BPD seen alone, BPD comorbid with Bipolar, and BPD seen in ASDs. I suspect the biggest ways to differentiate one from another is to look at the development of the behaviors and the course these behaviors take:

1. a noncomorbid BPDer will rarely change their behaviors
2. a Bipolar BPDer may be helped by medication
3. an ASD BPDer may wax and wane with their interests in the person and may even eventually grow out of the behaviors

So on a behavioral level, my answer to the question is yes, BPD and ASDs can occur together. As for whether the genetic and neuroanatomical/chemical basis for a non-ASD BPDer and an ASD BPDer have the same kind of BPD in nature, I have my doubts given some of the differing courses of the behaviors.

But in any case, for an Aspie who's portraying BPD traits, any history of prolonged abuse needs to be taken into account. And BPD, true, is associated with trauma and abuse, but it isn't just any abuse; it is usually abuse from the parent, guardian, or caretaker and is thought to be the reason such strong childlike attachments are made to people who have suddenly filled the role of "parent figure".

After having read WP for more than a year at this point, and having read a great deal about autism, in general, I'm coming to the conclusion that there is so much overlap between Autistic Spectrum Disorders, Narcissistic Dirsorders (Borderline, Sociopath, Narcissistic), and Schizophrenic Disorder (Schizophrenia, Schizotypal, Schizoid) that it is wholly possible for either of the latter to make a case for actually having some form of high functioning autism. What label one actually receives will depend on the practitioner involved or if one is satisfied with just being "self-diagnosed."

There would be an attraction for people with Narcissistic or Schizophrenic disorders to identify as autistic because 1) There is less stigma involved with autism 2) autism tends to invoke pity in people while narcissim or schizophrenia tends to invoke disgust 3) autism is considered to be a neurological variant as opposed to a "mental illness" (thus allowing someone to escape the label of being "insane" or "mentally ill") and 4) while people with Asperger's are medicated, someone identified as any of the narcissistic disorders or schizophrenic disorders is more likely going to be pushed towards or even required to take drugs.

It will be interesting to see if they ever can pinpoint exactly what the genetic components of autism are, if they can genetically discern between varying heights of functionality in autism, because then we could know for certain what is autism and what isn't. An argument could be made that Asperger's, while being a neurological variant, really isn't as closely associated to autism as was once thought. Thus we have very similar disorders like Nonverbal Learning Disorder, Multisystem Developmental Disorder, and even Sensory Integration Disorder, which are not necessarily tied clinically to autism.

What ends up happening is that Asperger's could become a dumping ground for anyone with a high IQ who displays symptoms of any of the "disorders" mentioned in this post (and there were 9, I believe). So the diagnosis seems to become highly randomized, particularly since some clinicians will disagree with each other of who is or isn't autistic. It almost starts to look like junk science at a point.

I was told by a leading psychologist that the DS-IV should be ripped up an burnt because many personality disorders are often various expressions of autism and ADHD in adulthood.

Schizoid is an Aspie who is happy being alone.
BPD is a lonely Aspie who wants friends and hates people abandoning them.
Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder is an Aspie with co-morbid OCD.
Narcissistic personality disorder is an Aspie who loves himself and has little empathy for anyone else.
Avoidance personality Disorder and Social Phobia is an Aspie who is shy.

The current DSM-IV and understanding of personality disorders does not take into account neurological background to human personality development, it ignores autism and believes that personality development is caused by life experiences; your mother not hugging you enough, or your father being too emotionally cold and strict etc, etc.

Since autistic traits are so common in the general population; 10% in the general populate have broader autistic phenotype, the current DSM-IV and personality disorder descriptions are in unreliable, as far as Im concerned.

Here is a short letter in the Journal - Autism, by Prof. Micheal Fitzgerald

Yeah, OCD was another one I forgot to mention. That makes... 10 disorders Asperger's could be confused with. We could make a very complex Venn diagram!

Also consider the number of genes believed to be involved in Autism. Maybe autism is going to lead us into an area of study where what were once considered "solely" psychological conditions will have a certain number of genes involved. So maybe autism may be a neurological condition that is one variant of "mental illnesses," and that all of these conditions are neurological in origin, and it's environment that determines much of an individual's expression of the condition encoded.

Rjaye.

Schizoid personality disorder is actually closer to introversion and autism than to the stuff currently categorized as schizophrenia. The name itself is sort of a misnomer, from back when they thought it was how people were before they developed any of the number of things designated as schizophrenia. But it isn't.

(SPD was also my first diagnosis that I know of, because I was non-social and showed little expression.)