Landfill site and Windows Vista
"fast computer" is entirely depending on what you use it for
Vista certainly was not programmed to run on a 1GHz machine with 256mb RAM. Why would you try to install Vista on that computer ? Win2000 surely would run perfectly and fast on it.
I also wouldnt exactly call it fast...
My PC is core2 2.4GHz, 2 gig or RAM, etc. I wouldnt even say my PC is fast, its good but not fast.
Vista was really built to run on dual core machines. I would say the best thing is for you to install XP and sell that copy of vista. If someone told you it would be good for you Id get a refund, infact demand a refund quite angrily.
I don't like Vista, but I don't think you can judge it based on its performance running on a 1Ghz system with 256mb ram. That doesn't even meet the minimum system requirements. It's like saying a computer game like Crysis or Supreme Commander is garbage because it won't work on your Pentium 2. You should format the drive and install Windows 2000, you will get a lot more out of your system.
I wouldn't consider your system to be by any stretch of the imagination to be 'fast', by the way. Perhaps several years ago, but technology has definitely moved on. Did someone recently sell you this computer and tell you that it would be 'fast'?
I'm just shocked reading this thread! I remember considering my IBM PC 4.77MHz computer with 16k of RAM to be exceptionally fast and nice to use. I almost couldn't believe how fast and wonderful my 6MHz IBM PC/AT with a 20Mb hard disk was -- especially after I took my soldering iron out and replaced the 6MHz crystal with an 8MHz crystal. I was literally in heaven!!
Programs ran quite fast, by the way. If you aren't stuck inanely and insanely moving pixels in huge blocks back and forth in a computer, you often find quite a lot of work can get done. The layers of software (for example, there are up to 64 separate layers [memory serving] just for interrupt events under WinXP) also slow things down a great deal, moving gradually through increasingly abstract layers upwards and then back down again. It's amazing what you can do to hobble an otherwise fast computer, just shoveling software at it.
I doubt most folks know well the extents to which modern computers have advanced. And I'm not just talking clock rates. A modern Pentium II, III, and IV has an incredible design. The front side bus, and that's just the communication path between the cpus and the chipset, uses a 7-stage pipeline. There is a transaction phase, an error phase, a cache hit phase, and up to 4 data phases. And they operate in parallel, so that the next transaction phase can take place while the error phase of the previous transaction is taking place.. etc. In short, it is highly optimized. Each of the CPUs maintains it's own cache -- two levels, in fact -- an L1 and an L2. The L1 was close to the cpu and was very fast, 3 cpu clocks; the L2 was on a separate die at first (accessed via the back side bus) and took 6 cpu clocks. Meanwhile, the chipset would monitor the transactions going on and handle RAM accesses as well as PCI bus transaction transfers and could buffer up to 8 separate transactions at once. The chipset includes inbound and outbound queues to keep everything moving as fast as possible and avoid being held up waiting for something. All of this operating at blinding speeds. There was special logic to allow read-around-writes and other things, so that some kinds of transactions that were able to be served faster would actually be allowed faster response times even when that meant they took place out of their natural order. And that's only scratching the surface.
In short, the newer computers aren't just faster in terms of clock rates and aren't just faster in terms of bus speeds, they also include an incredible amount of sophistication in terms of the chipsets, which have almost as many transistor equivalents as the CPUs, themselves. They have much faster disk drives and much faster memories, too. These things are better in every possible way than the earlier IBM PC/AT. I mean, we are talking cpus that are nearly 1000 times as fast, memories and hard disks that are 100 times as fast. And yet, much of the code I write for them doesn't run anywhere near that much faster.
Jon
I suppose that's a yes.
Jon
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Old days: the memory and CPU was limited, so computer code had to be written to a very high standard to reduce it's memory footprint, and optimise the number of CPU cycles it used.
Present day: programmers just look at the amount of memory and CPU power available, and don't make the slightest effort to optimise anything.
If programming was done to the same standard as it was when 8 bit was the norm, computers would probably be 10x as fast. But then programming would be a much harder job. Writing windows in optimised assembly language would take decades.
Strapples
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GET A MAC
that is all..
the reason i say this is leopard is coded very well... it can run even on a G4 old old G4 first generation G4 and run quite happily... unlike windows vista which is coded like crap!
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Last edited by Strapples on 20 Jan 2008, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Present day: programmers just look at the amount of memory and CPU power available, and don't make the slightest effort to optimise anything.
If programming was done to the same standard as it was when 8 bit was the norm, computers would probably be 10x as fast. But then programming would be a much harder job. Writing windows in optimised assembly language would take decades.
One is the level of craftsmanship that exists within the programmers, themselves. When I started out, the level of training and skill of even the more modest programmers was fairly high. I still have some of the books used by manufacturers, whose job was not necessarily to teach but to sell products, and they include quite a range of detailed instruction on subjects as wide as operating systems, coroutine design, runtime program design, as well as various compiler skills. Most folks making a profession of it quickly acquired programming skills in a wide variety of languages, not only assembly of course, which at the time would usually include algol, basic, fortran, pascal, c, and cobol. As well as that, many bits of equipment wasn't entirely reliable and much of it very, very slow (magtape drives, for example) so even more effort was spent understanding highly technical and some ways similarly mathematical techniques required to apply these devices effectively and efficiently. When such programmers are faced with new challenges, they bring to the table a much wider range of skill sets and often are better positioned to fashion efficient designs from the outset. For example, because they are much more familiar as a rule with a wider base of mathematics, it isn't uncommon for them to be familiar with techniques such as Chebyshev and the application of minimax techniques to improving the performance of some transcendental problems; or the use of quaternions instead of basic rotation matrix methods for many motion problems found in 3D game systems; to name a few. This doesn't mean more coding time. It means bringing more to the table. And the base of programmers today are simply not as well trained, as a rule, now. Most are well below the base of the pyramid that used to exist "back in the day" and choose programming as an alternative to, say, accounting... more because they are looking for less stress than because of it "being in their bones," so to speak. I've taught undergrad classes of students at university level and I have seen the changes over my lifetime in those considering this avocation. This isn't the fault of the students, but instead a fault of the tremendous success a prior generation of well trained programmers have had in making computers more accessible to all, business and personal use alike, and the growing demand for any skill at all, whether it be merely HTML and PHP or something more. The "tent" is much bigger now and a much greater difference between the most skilled and the least skilled within it is now possible. Programmers no longer need to understand how to implement serialization, for example, as Microsoft's engineers have nearly removed this problem and spun off languages that completely hide the problem. .NET is one such example, I'm thinking of. Lots more people, with less skill, can program fairly competent programs with very little real training, as a result. This wider tent of programmers means less average skill, which necessarily also requires more sophisticated and broad-based hidden support for otherwise difficult situations and because that support needs to cover a great many possible ills in order to be sufficiently general purpose to not require specialized skills to apply it, is also necessarily overburdened by excess layers of software -- both to provide general skill that is lacking in the programmers and also to provide a maintainable base of software by companies such as Microsoft in the face of a deepening complexity. (Layering helps keep things small enough to understand and deal with, piecemeal.)
Another point is highlighted by the fact (and it is my own direct experience, if no others') that some operating systems use the resources existing in the hardware better than others do. And some features are not in the users' direct interests. The case of Vista is manifest. In Microsoft's rabid desire to both satisfy some content providers, such as Sony, as well as to muscle into that business in their own right, they have burdened their own operating system with very significant and complex hurdles just to get something as modest as music to play. There is a carefully crafted degradation of digital signals which must also be supported not only by the software, but also by hardware devices connected to it. These things cost processing power. By design, not by some lack of effort applied (quite the opposite, really.)
Also, while one can argue that the price for software has greatly declined (I would pay, gladly, some $3000 to $5000 for a compiler from DEC, back when a young worker might expect some $600/month as a reasonable salary) in the intervening years, it's also true that the customer base has greatly widened and that total software revenues are astronomical by comparison, even using a "standard dollar" by which to compare. There is so much more money to be made in the business, now. So it isn't possible to argue that less real programming effort should be expended to cut costs. Instead, there is simply a lot more money available for performing good programming. Were it that you could actually find highly skilled programmers to perform it.
There are many "user desired" features which are superfluous to purposes intended but add to the sales "bullet marks" in magazine comparison articles and help sell products. "Docking toolbars" are an example. The IDE programming environment, almost assumed as a must these days, is nearly entirely excess baggage that takes away good programming skill of the vendor and borrows it from advancing the compiler tool itself -- which is the real core value.
To add to your point, though, the software development cycle has definitely shortened in the competitive environment. Nowhere is this easier to see than in gaming. Software life cycles on the shelf, except for some exceptionally good cases, are measured in mere months. Often, 3 or 4 months. Sometimes, much less. How much time can anyone afford to invest in some piece of software that will be yesterday's history in half a year? That fact also tends to drive large, complex, and slow libraries that provide a cornucopia of features to attract the widest possible audience. In meeting that wide need and providing general services not scaled down to any particular use, they are slower than needed even when very well written.
Not all operating environments make the same use of the hardware, so it is a given that better can be done since we have manifest examples to show us that fact. Anyway, the basic point I wanted to leave with is that while I don't disagree with the thrust you made, that more effort at programming can pay off in terms of efficiency of execution, that doesn't necessarily justify a "whatever will be, will be" attitude about it. Programmers need to work hard to improve their skill sets, too. That still pays off, as well.
Jon
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:roll: :P :wink:
I suppose that's a yes. ;)
Jon
If you designed the Intel P2 why didn`t you guys just put Full-Speed Cache on them like Intel did on the Celeron- 300A+. It cheaper and you get about the same performence comparing 128KB Full-Speed and 512KB Half=Speed Cache.
