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Fnord
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23 Apr 2011, 2:01 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas.

Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?



ryan93
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23 Apr 2011, 2:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas.

Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?


They probably can, but there is a difference between a description, and the actual thing. The Universe isn't math, but it can be described in terms of math.


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Fnord
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23 Apr 2011, 2:16 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?
They probably can, but there is a difference between a description, and the actual thing. The Universe isn't math, but it can be described in terms of math.

Actually, the difference here is that between an opinion and a valid claim.

The claim is that "Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas."

I'm asking for evidence to back up this claim. Without evidence, the claim is invalid, and no more than one man's opinion ... or maybe just wishful thinking on his part.



Simonono
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23 Apr 2011, 2:17 pm

We live in a mini-universe in a jar in Albert Einstein's laboratory.



ruveyn
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23 Apr 2011, 2:33 pm

Simonono wrote:
We live in a mini-universe in a jar in Albert Einstein's laboratory.


No we don't.

ruveyn



ryan93
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23 Apr 2011, 2:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?
They probably can, but there is a difference between a description, and the actual thing. The Universe isn't math, but it can be described in terms of math.

Actually, the difference here is that between an opinion and a valid claim.

The claim is that "Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas."

I'm asking for evidence to back up this claim. Without evidence, the claim is invalid, and no more than one man's opinion ... or maybe just wishful thinking on his part.


He probably means that the math can be represented in all three; Computer simulation is based on math, The Universe is obviously a model of itself, and he supposed Mind can model the Universe in a such a way too. The third actually is more dubious, looking at it again....


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aghogday
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23 Apr 2011, 3:04 pm

Humans are interesting, in that they may be one of the few sentient beings with the ability to create the illusion that they are "special" and separate from the natural environment that they live in.

I think our advanced culture is a downfall of our collective intelligence in the sense that it enables us to gain this illusion and provides the gateway to lose the connection with the environment that most animals have.

I think the question becomes do we try too hard to separate ourselves from God. My definition of God is all there is, was, and will be; not the normal religious definition.

And perhaps the strangest part of all, is that we try to imagine A God that is somehow separate from us. We have all been on this journey from the beginning of time. If the Big Bang theory is correct everything in the Universe existed at one point together, with no sentience.

Consciousness is a relatively new thing since the beginning of time and a very small part of the Universe, but never the less all consciousness is connected to that beginning point.

There is no way we can separate the idea of God from consciousness if we are the eyes of God. However, the forces that work together that constitute God may be more advanced than anything we can imagine or measure with the aid of our collective intelligence. The idea that the forces must be sentient are restricted by our own restricted sentience.

Some people search their whole lives looking for God, wondering what God looks like and how he thinks, not realizing how lucky they have been to see God all their life, and how amazing it is that they continue to exist after Billions of years.

When I was young and walked the seashore for years, before I became one with the culture we live in, I was one of those lucky people. My destiny was to understand less, and be caught in a man made labyrinth.



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23 Apr 2011, 6:07 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?
They probably can, but there is a difference between a description, and the actual thing. The Universe isn't math, but it can be described in terms of math.

Actually, the difference here is that between an opinion and a valid claim.

The claim is that "Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas."

I'm asking for evidence to back up this claim. Without evidence, the claim is invalid, and no more than one man's opinion ... or maybe just wishful thinking on his part.


He probably means that the math can be represented in all three; Computer simulation is based on math, The Universe is obviously a model of itself, and he supposed Mind can model the Universe in a such a way too. The third actually is more dubious, looking at it again....

That's what I meant, I guess I didn't said it correctly. :oops:


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ryan93
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23 Apr 2011, 6:18 pm

Tollorin wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide a link to this "Theoretical" definition. In other words...

Evidence, Please?
They probably can, but there is a difference between a description, and the actual thing. The Universe isn't math, but it can be described in terms of math.

Actually, the difference here is that between an opinion and a valid claim.

The claim is that "Creation from a mind, stimulation from a computer and just the plain Universe (If real) can theorically all be defined with the same mathematical formulas."

I'm asking for evidence to back up this claim. Without evidence, the claim is invalid, and no more than one man's opinion ... or maybe just wishful thinking on his part.


He probably means that the math can be represented in all three; Computer simulation is based on math, The Universe is obviously a model of itself, and he supposed Mind can model the Universe in a such a way too. The third actually is more dubious, looking at it again....

That's what I meant, I guess I didn't said it correctly. :oops:


Nah, I got the jist. But again, I think you are mistaking simulation for "the real schizzle". There's a big difference between an interconnection of ideas (e=mc^2 being an obvious example), and the actual ideas.


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ruveyn
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04 May 2011, 4:20 am

ryan93 wrote:

He probably means that the math can be represented in all three; Computer simulation is based on math, The Universe is obviously a model of itself, and he supposed Mind can model the Universe in a such a way too. The third actually is more dubious, looking at it again....


Any system that can model itself is inconsistent or incomplete.

ruveyn



ryan93
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04 May 2011, 4:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
ryan93 wrote:

He probably means that the math can be represented in all three; Computer simulation is based on math, The Universe is obviously a model of itself, and he supposed Mind can model the Universe in a such a way too. The third actually is more dubious, looking at it again....


Any system that can model itself is inconsistent or incomplete.

ruveyn


What I mean is that the universe is a model of itself, given that the Universe is itself. It isn't a "formal system" that can be reduced to simple arithmetic, it's a collection of objects. Although I could see how Gödel's theorems would apply for other systems in this sense; a system might model itself, but it can't model itself modeling itself modelling itself....(or maybe I'm just after confusing myself, damn recursion :P)


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