Page 2 of 4 [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Vectorspace
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 903
Location: Germany

24 Jan 2013, 5:09 pm

I think the question was already correctly answered above. Just this:

Dividing "0 / 0" is "worse" than dividing, say "1 / 0".
In algebra, they say that dividing by 0 never makes sense in a field. It's just not defined.

You sometimes here people saying "well, if you divide by zero, you get infinity", which is not that wrong...
Even mathematicians sometimes define "1 / 0 = ∞". This is OK, if you know what you're doing.
The idea behind it is that you consider limits. The limit for "1 / x" with "x → 0" is ∞ if you require "x > 0" (otherwise, the limit doesn't exist).
You can do this, but you shouldn't be surprised that "1 / 0" and "2 / 0" are the same thing then (namely ∞). That's why you have to be careful when solving equations.

But "0 / 0" is worse. You can still try limits and consider "x / y" for "x → 0" and "y → 0" (with positive x,y). But then you still don't know... If you apply "x → 0" first, then the answer should be 0 (because any fraction with 0 in its nominator is 0). If you apply "y → 0" first, then the answer should be ∞.

tl;dr: Don't divide by zero. If you insist, don't be surprised about the implications.



ianorlin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 756

24 Jan 2013, 6:22 pm

Vectorspace wrote:
I think the question was already correctly answered above. Just this:

Dividing "0 / 0" is "worse" than dividing, say "1 / 0".
In algebra, they say that dividing by 0 never makes sense in a field. It's just not defined.

You sometimes here people saying "well, if you divide by zero, you get infinity", which is not that wrong...
Even mathematicians sometimes define "1 / 0 = ∞". This is OK, if you know what you're doing.
The idea behind it is that you consider limits. The limit for "1 / x" with "x → 0" is ∞ if you require "x > 0" (otherwise, the limit doesn't exist).
You can do this, but you shouldn't be surprised that "1 / 0" and "2 / 0" are the same thing then (namely ∞). That's why you have to be careful when solving equations.

But "0 / 0" is worse. You can still try limits and consider "x / y" for "x → 0" and "y → 0" (with positive x,y). But then you still don't know... If you apply "x → 0" first, then the answer should be 0 (because any fraction with 0 in its nominator is 0). If you apply "y → 0" first, then the answer should be ∞.

tl;dr: Don't divide by zero. If you insist, don't be surprised about the implications.
You could use lohospital rule in the limit to find which approches zero if both are differentiable.



yellowtamarin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,763
Location: Australia

24 Jan 2013, 7:22 pm

Here's my non-mathematical answer. It's completely incorrect (mathematically), but I like it.

If you think of zero as nothing:

"4 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in 4?". There can't be any nothings, because there is something. If there is something there cannot be nothing. So the answer is zero.

"0 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in nothing?". Well, there's one. One whole nothing. There aren't any more or less than that, because you are not asking "how many nothings are there in two nothings?" or "how many nothings are there in an infinite number of nothings?" or "how many nothings are there in half a nothing?". And there aren't no nothings, because you've just referred to a nothing.

Therefore, 0 / 0 = 1.

I know, it's pathetic. And this is a maths forum so I'll be leaving now :P



Vectorspace
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 903
Location: Germany

24 Jan 2013, 7:48 pm

ianorlin wrote:
You could use lohospital rule in the limit to find which approches zero if both are differentiable.

Yes, that's exactly what you should do when you want to calculate the limit of a fraction "f(x) / g(x)" with "f(x) → 0" and "g(x) → 0" for "x→0".
(Nitpicking: "g'(x)≠0" must also hold in some interval around 0, and there are also three other versions of this theorem.)

It doesn't answer the question "What is '0 / 0'?", but it's an example why there can't be a meaningful answer.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

24 Jan 2013, 8:16 pm

When you divide something by any number less than zero it is the same as multiplying by that number's reciprical . Thus dividing by one third is the same as multiplying by three.

The smaller the sub-one number your are using as a divisor the closer you get to having the effect of multiplying by infinity.

Thus if you divide by zero you in effect "multiplying by infinity."

Three over zero is infinity.

But when you divide zero into zero- you are in effect muliplying zero by infinity.

Infinite amount of nothing is....still nothing.

So dividing any non zero number equals infinity (because you are in effect multiplying by infinity). But dividing zero by zero is zero ( not one- but zero!).



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

24 Jan 2013, 10:12 pm

yellowtamarin wrote:
Here's my non-mathematical answer. It's completely incorrect (mathematically), but I like it.

If you think of zero as nothing:

"4 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in 4?". There can't be any nothings, because there is something. If there is something there cannot be nothing. So the answer is zero.

"0 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in nothing?". Well, there's one. One whole nothing. There aren't any more or less than that, because you are not asking "how many nothings are there in two nothings?" or "how many nothings are there in an infinite number of nothings?" or "how many nothings are there in half a nothing?". And there aren't no nothings, because you've just referred to a nothing.

Therefore, 0 / 0 = 1.

I know, it's pathetic. And this is a maths forum so I'll be leaving now :P


It looks like a lot of non-sequiturs to be honest. :lol:



yellowtamarin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,763
Location: Australia

24 Jan 2013, 10:53 pm

MCalavera wrote:
It looks like a lot of non-sequiturs to be honest. :lol:

Probably!



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

24 Jan 2013, 11:05 pm

It was creative at least. I'll give you that.

I can easily say, though, that 4 / 0 is 4 using your argument.

If there are no nothings, then there's a something. That something is 4. ;)



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

24 Jan 2013, 11:10 pm

There's another way to look at the problem, which is to talk about the limits of infinite sequences. The problem is that there are good limit arguments for all of the possibilities in the original post. So it's wise to just not define it, unless you have some particular goal in mind. Here are limit arguments for all four possibilities:

Consider the infinite sequence
(0/2, 0/1, 0/0.5, 0/0.25, ...)
where the top of the fraction is always 0, and the bottom of the fraction keeps getting halved.
All of the things in this sequence are actually just 0, so the sequence is approaching 0.
When we look at the pattern of the sequence, we see that it is approaching "0/0".
So we want 0/0 = 0.

Consider the infinite sequence
(2/2, 1/1, 0.5/0.5, 0.25/0.25, ...)
where the top of the fraction and the bottom of the fraction keep getting halved.
All of the things in this sequence are actually just 1, so the sequence is approaching 1.
When we look at the pattern of the sequence, we see that it is approaching "0/0".
So we want 0/0 = 1.

Consider the infinite sequence
(2/32, 1/8, 0.5/2, 0.25/0.5, ...)
where the top of the fraction keeps getting halved and the bottom of the fraction keeps getting quartered.
This sequence is actually (1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 4, 8,...), so the sequence is approaching infinity.
When we look at the pattern of the sequence, we see that it is approaching "0/0".
So we want 0/0 = infinity.

Pick any number x.
Consider the infinite sequence
(2x/2, x/1, 0.5x/0.5, 0.25x/0.25, ...)
where the top of the fraction and the bottom of the fraction keep getting halved.
All of the things in this sequence are actually just x, so the sequence is approaching x.
When we look at the pattern of the sequence, we see that it is approaching "0/0".
So we want 0/0 = x.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

24 Jan 2013, 11:27 pm

yellowtamarin wrote:
"0 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in nothing?". Well, there's one. One whole nothing.


This is a sensible way of looking at it, but I think that if you ask the question slightly differently you will see why the situation is strange.

8 / 2 means "how many 2's are there in 8?" The answer is 4.

8 / 2 means "how many 2's can you fit into 8 before you run out of room?" The answer is 4.

0 / 0 means "how many 0's are there in 0?" The answer is 1.

0 / 0 means "how many 0's can you fit into 0 before you run out of room?" The answer is infinity.

4 / 0 means "how many 0's are there in 4?". The answer is 0. (??????)

4 / 0 means "how many 0's can you fit into 4 before you run out of room?" The answer is infinity.



yellowtamarin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,763
Location: Australia

25 Jan 2013, 12:59 am

I had left, but I can't resist responding.

MCalavera wrote:
It was creative at least. I'll give you that.

I can easily say, though, that 4 / 0 is 4 using your argument.

If there are no nothings, then there's a something. That something is 4. ;)

But there's only one 4, so the answer is now 1! Argh!

Declension wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
"0 / 0 = ?" is like saying "how many nothings are there in nothing?". Well, there's one. One whole nothing.


This is a sensible way of looking at it, but I think that if you ask the question slightly differently you will see why the situation is strange.

8 / 2 means "how many 2's are there in 8?" The answer is 4.

8 / 2 means "how many 2's can you fit into 8 before you run out of room?" The answer is 4.

0 / 0 means "how many 0's are there in 0?" The answer is 1.

0 / 0 means "how many 0's can you fit into 0 before you run out of room?" The answer is infinity.

4 / 0 means "how many 0's are there in 4?". The answer is 0. (??????)

4 / 0 means "how many 0's can you fit into 4 before you run out of room?" The answer is infinity.

I'd say the answer to that one is still zero, because you can't fit any nothings into something. As soon as there is something, there is no nothing. And as soon as there's nothing, there's no longer something. So if you do manage to fit 0 into a 4, the 4 is no longer a 4, it's a 0.


On a more serious note though (and still not mathematical in the slightest, sorry), I don't understand how you could ever have an infinite number of zeros/nones/nothings. Just the one covers it, you can't add them together like you can with the other numbers.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

25 Jan 2013, 1:11 am

yellowtamarin wrote:
I'd say the answer to that one is still zero, because you can't fit any nothings into something.


If you have an empty 8-litre container and a bunch of jugs which each contain 2 litres of water, how many of the jugs can you pour into the container before the container overflows?

If you have an empty 8-litre container and a bunch of empty jugs, how many of the jugs can you pour into the container before the container overflows?



yellowtamarin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Sep 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,763
Location: Australia

25 Jan 2013, 1:16 am

Declension wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I'd say the answer to that one is still zero, because you can't fit any nothings into something.


If you have an empty 8-litre container and a bunch of jugs which each contain 2 litres of water, how many of the jugs can you pour into the container before the container overflows?

If you have an empty 8-litre container and a bunch of empty jugs, how many of the jugs can you pour into the container before the container overflows?

Nice. :)



Trencher93
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Age: 126
Gender: Male
Posts: 464

25 Jan 2013, 7:47 am

I guess Australian math is different, kind of like how water drains differently. :)



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

25 Jan 2013, 8:06 am

Trencher93 wrote:
I guess Australian math is different


Actually, the entire Southern hemisphere was created when Abel Tasman accidentally divided by zero while doing calculations on his ship. True story!

This event released a powerful Anti-Logic Field which still lingers in the area to this day. It causes water to spin backwards and allows people to walk upside-down.



b9
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Age: 54
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,003
Location: australia

25 Jan 2013, 8:37 am

Quote:
0 divided by 0


nothing trumps infinity,
because nothing does not exist.

nothing's not something,
and something's not nothing,

there's no cosmological tryst,
twixt what is not and what is.


obviously infinity is not quantifiable (because it is larger than any brain that could inspect it fully), and zero is likewise unquantifiable (because it does not exist).