Scientists debunk themselves into a corner Volume 2

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So when Marcell and the boys (Cavitt, Rickett, Walker and Sherriff Wilcox) went to General William Kupner (Airforce), he also declared its an alien ship, but when he got to General Roger M Ramey (Lieutenant general of the US airforce), Ramey (according to Marcell) that's when the story changed. It's generally accepted Kupner was the one on Ramey's orders who rescinded the original story which Ramey later (and famously) debunked the whole crew in front of the whole world. Kupner was later rewarded with a promotion to Lieutenant general in 1950.

The only explanation is aliens, even when it turns out to be something mundane, it was really aliens.

Wasn't it said to be a formation of military jets? At dark. I think that the mind naturally wants to connect the dots (lights).

When I was a kid, we could hear jets flying over the house, but these were B-52s at about 300 to 600 feet (100 miles from a SAC base). We couldn't hear them coming but as they passed and afterwards you could hear them. In their case, their formation, if you can call it that, was about one aircraft ever three to five minutes.

On the other hand, the military aircraft being refueled in mid-air were at altitude and we never heard them at all.

These days, we have lots of commercial jets fly over, but they are at 35,000 feet and higher. We can't hear a thing. In the daytime, we just see a contrail. In the nighttime, disconnected moving lights as expected since the aren't flying formations.

By the way, if you are out working on a runway at the local uncontrolled airport, you have to have someone with you watching for approaching airplanes since you won't hear them until it is too late.

Repairing asphalt? Mowing near the runway? Changing landing lights? Painting the runways? You have someone with you to watch for aircraft coming in to land. If you don't have someone as a lookout, you are taking a very real chance of killing yourself and others.

If those Phoenix lights were from extraterrestrial sources, why would they be going out of their way to draw attention to themselves? Why would they need to fly such large spacecraft over major cities at what for them would be very low altitudes? If they want to conduct surveillance, would we not expect them to have cameras at least as good as ours? Or, if they needed a closer look, would they not have drones similar to what we have today?

Those UFO sightings may be unidentified, but that does not mean that they are extraterrestrial. It just means that the observer couldn't identify what he was looking at.

that's what the Arizona airforce said, I think originally they said no aircraft were in the sky, but when the story hit the news they come up with "oh! actually there was a squadron actually, plus we were dropping flares. A number of people actually filmed the lights and although the quality wasn't great (In the 1990s video cameras weren't brilliant for night sky filming) there was enough there to clearly disqualify flares and jet planes flying in formation. B52s fly very high altitude whereas the lights are clearly relatively low, infact the witnesses said it was like a football field quietly hovering over the homes.

People who live near airports get to know what a commercial jet looks like. there's a famous event actually here in Melbourne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westall_UFO
the major kick back against this being anomalous was it was near Moorabbin airport, so the kids must have mistaken a plane or helicopter for a flying disc. Around 100-200 kids who live near the airport concurrently saw the same thing, when asked if they could have mistaken aircraft for a disc (which By the way landed near the school twice), all of them said they live near Moorabbin airport and plane watching was something they mastered by kindergarten so they were quite capable of distinguishing a plane Vs a disc. Very very hard to make it out they could have all got it wrong, like asking schoolboys who saw a truck claim they must have got it mixed up with a car.

I liked it when the B-52s flew over at 300 to 600 feet. You could wave at the pilots and they would often wave back.

On the subject of the lights over Phoenix, the descriptions are about what you might expect. 150 feet? Obscured by thin clouds?

From the page:

It also mentions two different things going on. One was five A-10 military jets. The other was flares dropped by four different A-10 military jets a couple of hours later.

There is absolutely nothing about this that requires extra-terrestrials to explain the events. For it to be extra-terrestrials, those extra-terrestrials would have to be incredibly stupid and incompetent.

I would argue if these objects were man made then why would whoever made them reveal in front of the general public? For example the US secret aircraft projects like the Stealth or Arora are flown away from public gaze. there was a recent drone incident in New Jersey from Oct 2024 - Jan 2025
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Unit ... _sightings

During this time hundreds of drone like objects and orbs were witnessed by thousands of residents of New Jersey and caught on film. the objects were witnessed by coast guard emerging from somewhere miles in the ocean and flying in swarms toward the coast. the DOD and FAA had no idea what these were but kept assuring the public there was nothing to worry about. It became a national issue with nobody in the government actually doing anything constructive. the drones are still an issue even now but somehow the FAA eventually claimed these were actually misidentified aircraft which judging from the video captures was wrong, the objects were the size of SUVs and often made no noise.

Whatever these were, they weren't conventional aircraft. the FAA were simply blanket dismissing the sightings in order to reduce public concern. Everyone in Jersey including the governor knew this.

Yeah Mitch Stanley is also a well known sceptic who spent a lot of time in the media afterward trying to debunk the incident and even got his mother to scoff/pour cold water on what people saw

Again don't automatically go to aliens, residents living in Pheonix see planes, jets and all manner of aircraft day in day out 365 days per year. How plausible is it that hundreds of random people saw something they don't normally see and be told they misidentified aircraft they see all the time?

Back to Stanley, his argument pivots on A-10 Military jets, just one problem, air traffic control also saw the lights over Phoenix but registered no aircraft on their radar which means whatever it was, it wasn't A-10 jets. Second, he claimed there were 7 planes flying in formation. the airforce actually never officially claimed to have 7 jets in the sky and attempts by the local Phoenix news for amateur plane enthusiasts flying private aircraft to come forward in case it wasn't sanctioned by air traffic control (one rumour was it was the Canadian Snowbirds, a group of T-37s which flies at air shows). But nobody came forward. this would suggest Mitch Stanley's claims are also dubious or at least lack verifiable evidence.

Small nitpick, the Snowbirds fly Canadair CL-41s, not Tweets.

The Tutor is a single engine plane, a bit bigger than the T-37 and developed by Canadair, unrelated to Cessna's design. They look pretty similar, but the CL-41 has a single exhaust and has it's tail plane mounted high, whereas the Tweet has it's mid-mounted.

As for drones flying into New Jersey, it makes far more sense to suspect that they are some kind of military experiment or military test than that they have anything to with extraterrestrials.

I sourced this rumour from here (Phoenix new times)
https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/th ... up-6422930

Maybe the journalist didn't check the specs...

I keep an open mind on both, the drones are perplexing because many of them appear to have anti-collision flashing lights which suggest they are following FAA rules. One allegation is that the military are sending their own regular drones but military drones don't look like silent SUVs. And second for what purpose is there to send hundreds of drones sweeping over Jersey? I mean if you want to quietly monitor Jersey there's surveillance satellites.

the mystery is who is responsible for them? I know members of congress were touting the idea the Chinese were releasing them from ships off the coast, only problem is the size and number of drones would require the equivalent of several aircraft carriers which we know neither the Chinese or Russians (or other powers) can't send within a certain distance from the US coast without triggering the defence systems the second they leave international waters.

Keeping an "open mind" about something that has zero chance is hardly a virtue.

Zero chance? I myself suspect that we won't get disclosure in our lifetimes what the government actually knows more than they are saying. Keeping an open mind is being open to all possibilities. Even the CIA and DOD admit that anomalous objects exist. Until they categorically identify them, alternative explanations remain on the table.

Given time, one could come up with trillions of impossible explanations. For example, two ants might have made a bet and the loser had to build some kind of shape with lights and fly it over Phoenix. Do you keep an "open mind" about all of those impossible explanations? Or do you just pick and choose between impossible explanations?

that is what scientists are supposed to do. Come up with hypotheses that can be tested. And some are doing something about it
https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/astrop ... erstellar/

It doesn't matter if the hypothesis is not supported. What does matter is ignoring possibilities because it conflicts with entrenched dogma.