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Scandium
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23 Aug 2011, 11:41 pm

Orwell wrote:
Scandium wrote:
1. "Any genetically-based phenotypic change in a population of organisms over successive generations. Evolution can also be thought of as the process by which species of living things can undergo modification over successive generations, with such modification sometimes resulting in the formation of new species." -Biology: A Guide to the Natural World by David Krogh (my intro to bio book)

Ugh. This definition is too imprecise. The change need not be phenotypic.

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Say you have an all-powerful species. One that can perfectly change the DNA of its members and control how it reproduces. Then what? Evolution created the species, but the species doesn't need evolution anymore.

Even by the definition from your book, this still qualifies as evolution. As long as it is still changing-even slightly- evolution is happening.

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2. Then I'm not talking about evolution. I'm talking about "progress". I'm talking about how natural evolution tends to make organisms have higher chances or survival and reproduction.

OK... the development and use of transmitted culture, including technology and medicine, is an evolutionary adaptation on the part of humans. Cancer treatments, to return to your example, gives those humans a higher chance for survival and reproduction. Ergo still "progress" as you are defining it, although I deeply disapprove of attempting to put such a definition in.

And natural evolution does not tend to make organisms have higher chances of survival/reproduction. It merely favors those organisms that do reproduce successfully. It does not make organisms do anything- they either live or die, reproduce or don't. Those that managed to reproduce will have more copies of themselves in future generations.

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3. Evolution is just a concept that usually generally makes stuff have a higher chance of surviving. I shouldn't have to explain it here. (and I don't have time)

That's not what evolution is. That's not even really what natural selection is. No, you do not have to explain it to me. I'm a biologist.

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5. I know how evolutionary biology works. I don't have a degree or anything, but I've programmed five simulations, tried out tons more on the internet (Sugarscape, DarwinBots, Framsticks, etc.), made my own evolution "simulation" on paper (manually doing everything and spinning an eraser as a random-number-generator :P), and chose evolutionary computation as the subject of an extra credit biology paper. (introductory to biology) I know that the little bots in the simulations will never stop evolving. They will always find some way to get ahead of the other species.

Those toy simulations are barely even a caricature of what's happening.

You are simply misunderstanding definitions. It's easy to do in a subject like evolution, where there is a lot of inaccurate information and misconceptions out there. Just read Campbell's Biology (the best intro book) and you'll get there.

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It's about whether or not it's possible for evolution to create a species that can completely control itself.

No. Everything still interacts with its environment, and those interactions are sufficiently complex that they cannot be completely controlled.

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there's a species that can control every aspect -of itself, to the point that evolution is no longer needed to help it survive?

You still seem to be misunderstanding what evolution is. You speak of evolution as though it were some kind of tool that species use to stay alive. That's not the case. Evolution is simply change over time. A species that never changed at all would no longer be evolving. However, it is unlikely that such a species could survive for long. Certainly not indefinitely.

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(also, I may not be able to reply for a while; I have marching band camp starting tomorrow; I will try to read your response sometime)

Ah, band camp. I remember those days. What instrument do you play?


1. Technically, isn't any change phenotypic? Even an addition of a single base-pair would slightly increase how long it takes for a cell to replicate its DNA.

1.5. Then evolution cannot end. But could natural selection be stopped?

2. If the species can't change environmental factors, then it's not "all-powerful". I guess you could say it's pretty much impossible to control everything, but natural selection can do it, then there is an end.

3. What do you do?

5. That's my schools Biology AP textbook. I wanted to take Chemistry AP, Physics H, and Biology AP, but I couldn't fit Biology in. D:

X. French Horn



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24 Aug 2011, 8:55 pm

Scandium wrote:
1. Technically, isn't any change phenotypic? Even an addition of a single base-pair would slightly increase how long it takes for a cell to replicate its DNA.

Nope. You could have any number of substitutions with no discernible effect.

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1.5. Then evolution cannot end. But could natural selection be stopped?

Possibly, but it's highly unlikely that it could ever be eliminated entirely.

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2. If the species can't change environmental factors, then it's not "all-powerful". I guess you could say it's pretty much impossible to control everything, but natural selection can do it, then there is an end.

Well, controlling the environment in absolute terms, down to the last detail, is impossible simply as a matter of mathematics. There are many systems whose behavior cannot be predicted, much less controlled.

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3. What do you do?

I'm currently finishing off the last class or two for my biology BS. I already finished the mathematics BS requirements. After that it's on to grad school. I've done some work in phylogenetics, a bit less in proteomics, had a few graduate courses on assorted topics in biology. I think all my grad-level bio courses have involved evolution quite a bit. I also had one undergrad class on nothing but evolution.

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5. That's my schools Biology AP textbook. I wanted to take Chemistry AP, Physics H, and Biology AP, but I couldn't fit Biology in. D:

Yeah, it's pretty typical to use Campbell for AP Bio. That's when I read it. Best book I've ever read. Worth getting and working through even if you're not in the class.

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X. French Horn

So that'd be mello in marching band, right? I'm a low brass guy.


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Dantac
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26 Aug 2011, 2:11 pm

shrox wrote:
Some posters have spoken about evolutionary changes to modern humans, what changes would you make? Other than illness free and better self repair, what in the physical layout would you want to change? With the exception of flight capable wings, I don't see that much the human body needs to change. We've shed body hair and claws, walk upright and have opposable thumbs, binocular color vision, and speech.


Id change plenty.

Our skeleton was adapted from quadrupeds in a rather shoddy manner. Id redesign the spine and hips.

Then id enchance the function of many organs. Primarily the respiratory,cardiovascular and digestive/excretory system so they are much more efficient. Its been rated these organs are quite inefficient at their job.

Id add gills in the upper part of our lungs (inside) to allow limited ability to breathe underwater

Id improve sight by making tetrachromacy a standard in all humans. This extends the wavelength range humans can see almost to the uv level. Note: tetrachromats exist in humans...only in females and very rarely.

Increase the cervical cavity in female pelvis so childbirth risks are almost zero.

A new opposable thumb where the pinky is. Can you imagine how easy it would be to open a peanut butter jar then? Glorious!! !!

...finally id introduce gene changes so facial and pubic hair never grow. Heck toss in no hair anywhere but eyebrows and top of you head. Mmmmmm



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26 Aug 2011, 4:10 pm

The problem with the species is the species. It is not a standard model.

Autistics compare to NTs, but in truth, so do many other groups, so many that while there may be true NTs, I do not think many.

I have heard seven billion possible combinations of DNA, and have passed that number, there should be some duplicates, but most are one of a kind.

Even one of us, uses less than half their DNA to be themselves, and carries recessives. How that plays out has to do with who you mate with.

Even a sex altered clone would not breed true. The best of pure bred dogs still produce some pups that do not fit the breed.

Even if you could get it down from breeding out one subject, then you are breeding in their defects, deaf white cats, German Shepard hip problems, the same in Iceland, in people, from a limited gene pool.

Besides that, we have very little knowledge of how it works. We spot how it fails.

You have lots of time to think out these things, hundreds of years.



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26 Aug 2011, 6:17 pm

Dantac wrote:

Our skeleton was adapted from quadrupeds in a rather shoddy manner. Id redesign the spine and hips.

Then id enchance the function of many organs. Primarily the respiratory,cardiovascular and digestive/excretory system so they are much more efficient. Its been rated these organs are quite inefficient at their job.


Can we have new knees please? Mine suck and keep breaking.

Could we also remove the appendix or give it a useful function? An organ that does nothing but randomly explode and kill you seems a bit of a design flaw.

And while we are at it, wtf is the coccyx there for? What am I, a monkey?! :lol: