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31 Mar 2012, 10:55 am

Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jono wrote:

No, because for most practical purposes and applications in astrophysics, quantum gravity is not needed and there is no complete theory of quantum gravity either (the most developed developed approach to a full theory of quantum gravity is string theory but it is not complete). Quantum gravity might explain physics in the presence of a black hole singularity where the physics of general relativity breaks down but unless we are talking about so-called "naked singularities" which have never been proven to exist anyway, no one can ever test such predictions since we cannot see inside a black hole.

.


According to Lee Smollin string theory is not even wrong. See his book: The Trouble With Physics.

ruveyn


Aside from myself simply not agreeing with everything Lee Smolin has to say, his own pet theory, i.e. loop quantum gravity, actually has worse problems with it, even respect to being testable, than what string theory has.



TTBOMK, super strings are purely theoretical and there is no experimental evidence for them. Despite a lack of a cogent theory of quantum gravity, as I pointed out earlier there is experimental evidence for its existence. There is however, some astrophysical evidence for the Kerr Metric after all. [ ]source



07 May 2012, 10:25 am

BUMP for relevance :idea:



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07 May 2012, 12:24 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Jono wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Jono wrote:

No, because for most practical purposes and applications in astrophysics, quantum gravity is not needed and there is no complete theory of quantum gravity either (the most developed developed approach to a full theory of quantum gravity is string theory but it is not complete). Quantum gravity might explain physics in the presence of a black hole singularity where the physics of general relativity breaks down but unless we are talking about so-called "naked singularities" which have never been proven to exist anyway, no one can ever test such predictions since we cannot see inside a black hole.

.


According to Lee Smollin string theory is not even wrong. See his book: The Trouble With Physics.

ruveyn


Aside from myself simply not agreeing with everything Lee Smolin has to say, his own pet theory, i.e. loop quantum gravity, actually has worse problems with it, even respect to being testable, than what string theory has.



TTBOMK, super strings are purely theoretical and there is no experimental evidence for them. Despite a lack of a cogent theory of quantum gravity, as I pointed out earlier there is experimental evidence for its existence. There is however, some astrophysical evidence for the Kerr Metric after all. [ ]source


The Kerr Metric is a solution to Einstein's Field Equation in classical general relativity. It does not involve quantum gravity.



08 May 2012, 11:04 am

Jono wrote:

The Kerr Metric is a solution to Einstein's Field Equation in classical general relativity. It does not involve quantum gravity.



Yes I'm aware. Surely you're aware that there is astrophysical evidence for frame dragging among many candidate black holes, and computer simulations of jet formation by Schwarzschild black holes do not predict the formation of relativistic jets when the black hole itself has no angular momentum.

Much of the instability of the Kerr solution could theoretically be avoided by a traveler passing into the black hole directly through the axis or rotation along a straight path.



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08 May 2012, 12:33 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Jono wrote:

The Kerr Metric is a solution to Einstein's Field Equation in classical general relativity. It does not involve quantum gravity.



Yes I'm aware. Surely you're aware that there is astrophysical evidence for frame dragging among many candidate black holes, and computer simulations of jet formation by Schwarzschild black holes do not predict the formation of relativistic jets when the black hole itself has no angular momentum.



Do you have a citation for physical proof of frame dragging around black holes?

Computer simulations are bupkis. They do not constitute empirical evidence of anything.

ruveyn



09 May 2012, 10:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Jono wrote:

The Kerr Metric is a solution to Einstein's Field Equation in classical general relativity. It does not involve quantum gravity.



Yes I'm aware. Surely you're aware that there is astrophysical evidence for frame dragging among many candidate black holes, and computer simulations of jet formation by Schwarzschild black holes do not predict the formation of relativistic jets when the black hole itself has no angular momentum.



Do you have a citation for physical proof of frame dragging around black holes?

Computer simulations are bupkis. They do not constitute empirical evidence of anything.

ruveyn




Yes, I do.

When traveling into a Rotating (Kerr)Black Hole through one of the axial poles, the angular and mixed coordinate components of the metric vanish and you are left with the radial and time components(dr^2 and dt^2). The Ricci curvature through the axis vanishes and this corresponds to a geodesic.

The instability of Kerr Black holes is triggered when a massive body approaches the Cauchy horizon from a non-zero azimuthal angle which causes the black hole to wobble violently and emit a bursts of gamma rays(according to the theory of Black Hole thermodynamics). Along the axis of rotation though the frame dragging vanishes and the approach of a massive body has no effect of the black holes angular momentum.



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11 May 2012, 9:43 am

AspieRogue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Jono wrote:

The Kerr Metric is a solution to Einstein's Field Equation in classical general relativity. It does not involve quantum gravity.



Yes I'm aware. Surely you're aware that there is astrophysical evidence for frame dragging among many candidate black holes, and computer simulations of jet formation by Schwarzschild black holes do not predict the formation of relativistic jets when the black hole itself has no angular momentum.



Do you have a citation for physical proof of frame dragging around black holes?

Computer simulations are bupkis. They do not constitute empirical evidence of anything.

ruveyn




Yes, I do.

When traveling into a Rotating (Kerr)Black Hole through one of the axial poles, the angular and mixed coordinate components of the metric vanish and you are left with the radial and time components(dr^2 and dt^2). The Ricci curvature through the axis vanishes and this corresponds to a geodesic.

The instability of Kerr Black holes is triggered when a massive body approaches the Cauchy horizon from a non-zero azimuthal angle which causes the black hole to wobble violently and emit a bursts of gamma rays(according to the theory of Black Hole thermodynamics). Along the axis of rotation though the frame dragging vanishes and the approach of a massive body has no effect of the black holes angular momentum.


A couple of issues here. First of all, Kerr black holes can be modeled without the need for quantum gravity because the Kerr metric is a classical solution to Einstein's field equation. Frame dragging is not a quantum gravity effect, it is predicted by the Kerr solution without invoking quantum effects. The only reason why the Swartzchild solution doesn't predict it is because it is a non-rotating solution and it's also not the right solution to use for modeling realistic black holes.

Secondly, any object passing through a Kerr black hole produces it's own gravitational field, disturbing the metric. The instability of the interior structure of the Kerr metric is comparable to balancing a ball point pen on its tip, any disturbance will cause it to collapse. Just because you balance mathematical equations in a theoretical model, doesn't mean it's possible in reality, under realistic conditions.

Finally, all radiation observed so far from black holes actually comes matter and charged particles that into the black hole. Charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation when they are accelerated, this has got nothing to do with black hole thermodynamics. Actual effects of black hole thermodynamics, such as Hawking Radiation, have never been observed. Such radiation would be too weak detect by current equipment and the radiation would be weaker the larger the black hole.