How much money have you saved with Pirate Bay

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Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 2:01 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Since the price of Adobe's software is so ludicrous, we can assume they are one those exceptions, but that doesn't mean your average joe will buy a disc for £400, just the same as not everyone will spend a fortune on a Mac or an iPhone.

And thus not everyone will have a Mac or an iPhone. I have neither.

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Not always - you can get many cheap cars that are very reliable, for example.

I said "often," not "always." I think GNU/Linux is the best OS, and it's free. I don't pay a dime for any software I use, but I also don't obtain any of it illegally.

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Adobe has something of a monopoly,

And if you don't like that fact, there are two things you can do about it:
1) Support existing competitors, like the GIMP or Pixelmator. Pixelmator would add new features and port to Windows if there was a demand for it, but instead people just steal Photoshop.
2) Write your own competing program.

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But what if someone doesn't wanna pay £400 for a bunch of ones and zeroes

It is deeply disingenuous to refer to a complex software program which took untold hours of hard work and programmer creativitiy to produce as "a bunch of ones and zeroes." Make your one damn ones and zeroes.

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 2:16 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Yup. And the one they keep replacing? Thats a lot of wasted effort for "who cares", so who are you fooling with the claim that "they dont care about piracy"?

Alright, fair enough then. But it isn't a massive issue since the professionals who they target tend to pay up.

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3) Pirate Photoshop.

I believe I've answered your two points there in other posts, so I won't do so again.

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But at the end of the day... That's what it is. Yes, it took a lot of work to make, but those responsible for making it got paid for all that effort, and it makes no difference to them whether or not someone who was never going to pay to buy the software in the first place pirates it.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 2:47 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

3) Pirate Photoshop.

That does nothing about Adobe having a monopoly. All it can ever do is give them an incentive to put in obnoxious anti-piracy measures that make life a hassle for legitimate customers.

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Oh really? You've contacted the actual software engineers who wrote Photoshop, and they're OK with you stealing their work? Somehow I doubt it.

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 2:56 pm

Orwell wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

3) Pirate Photoshop.

That does nothing about Adobe having a monopoly. All it can ever do is give them an incentive to put in obnoxious anti-piracy measures that make life a hassle for legitimate customers.

Yes, but it tells the market that there's a gap for a full-featured, reasonably priced, photo editing program. That should prompt competition.

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Oh really? You've contacted the actual software engineers who wrote Photoshop, and they're OK with you stealing their work? Somehow I doubt it.[/quote]

I haven't "stolen" anything, and neither has anyone who actually has pirated Photoshop. We've been over the whole "piracy is theft" BS.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 3:06 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Yes, but it tells the market that there's a gap for a full-featured, reasonably priced, photo editing program. That should prompt competition.

No. It tells the market "It doesn't matter if your hard work results in a quality program that I place value on. I'm a cheapskate and I'll just take whatever I want without paying you anyways."

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I haven't "stolen" anything, and neither has anyone who actually has pirated Photoshop. We've been over the whole "piracy is theft" BS.

We have, and you are still wrong. There is no difference between downloading a torrent of Photoshop, and walking out of a store with a CD of Photoshop. The physical media is not where the value lies.

But you didn't answer the substantive question. You have spoken to the software developers who wrote Photoshop, and they're OK with you pirating it?

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 3:57 pm

Orwell wrote:

No. It tells the market "It doesn't matter if your hard work results in a quality program that I place value on. I'm a cheapskate and I'll just take whatever I want without paying you anyways."

Not really, it just says "I'm not paying £400 for the ability to edit photos on my computer."

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We have, and you are still wrong. There is no difference between downloading a torrent of Photoshop, and walking out of a store with a CD of Photoshop. The physical media is not where the value lies.

Of course there is. Piracy isn't taking anything from anyone (in this case, taking the disc from the shop would cause it to directly lose money as a result), it's just sending a bunch of ones and zeroes over the internet, which - if you were never going to buy the software in the first place - isn't taking anything from anyone.

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But you didn't answer the substantive question. You have spoken to the software developers who wrote Photoshop, and they're OK with you pirating it?

Of course not, but it wouldn't make sense to care if you've already been paid for your work. If a man in a factory helps build a car, and that car gets stolen later on, I doubt he'll care as long as he's still been paid for the part he played in the production. And Adobe is hardly short of money to pay their developers, even with all the piracy, probably because the people who do buy their software have to put up with such extortionate prices.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 4:10 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Not really, it just says "I'm not paying £400 for the ability to edit photos on my computer."

Hm, that's a far cry from what you previously claimed it said. Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

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Of course there is. Piracy isn't taking anything from anyone (in this case, taking the disc from the shop would cause it to directly lose money as a result),

You are wrong on the facts. The disc itself has essentially zero value. The contents of the disc are valuable. If you are not costing anyone money by taking the contents of the disc, then you are not costing anyone money by taking the disc.

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it's just sending a bunch of ones and zeroes over the internet, which - if you were never going to buy the software in the first place - isn't taking anything from anyone.

Enough with the "ones and zeroes" BS. If they're so worthless and so easy to come by and so banal as a binary string, make your own damn program.

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Oh, so you have no idea what you're talking about and are just making something up based on what you think would make sense. Well, it's not for you to judge their motives. That which you create, you own. They created the program; therefore they own it. It doesn't matter if you think they are being irrational; they are still the owners of the program and if they have a problem with what you're doing, you are in the wrong.

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 4:15 pm

Orwell wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

Not really, it just says "I'm not paying £400 for the ability to edit photos on my computer."

Hm, that's a far cry from what you previously claimed it said. Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

What are you on about? I've said it means that Adobe's software is too expensive, the person pirating it wouldn't buy it anyway, and that there needs to be better competition, all of which are true.

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Wrong. The shop would have paid hundreds for that disc, so by stealing it, you're losing the shop money.

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Enough with the "ones and zeroes" BS. If they're so worthless and so easy to come by and so banal as a binary string, make your own damn program.

But it's a fact. Data, no matter what it is, is nothing but a bunch of ones and zeroes, as I'm sure you're well aware.

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I think you'll find that it's Adobe that owns the program, the developers don't own s**t. Clearly you don't understand how intellectual property works.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 4:35 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

But it's a fact. Data, no matter what it is, is nothing but a bunch of ones and zeroes, as I'm sure you're well aware.

Then go get your own ones and zeroes. Here, I'll even give you some to start off with, free of charge:
11001111100010001010101010110000111101010010010001011001111001100101000111010101011110011111000100010101010101100001111010

Oh, that's probably not at all useful for image editing, is it? No, it isn't. A lot more than just zeroes and ones goes into a piece of software.

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I think you'll find that it's Adobe that owns the program, the developers don't own s**t. Clearly you don't understand how intellectual property works.

OK fine, Adobe owns the program. Did they say you can use it without paying? No, I'm betting they didn't.

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 5:07 pm

Orwell wrote:

The end result, and the data that's stored in the discs and zapped around the net, is ones and zeroes, just like your holiday photos, your MP3s, and all the other stuff you have on your computer.

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OK fine, Adobe owns the program. Did they say you can use it without paying? No, I'm betting they didn't.

Again, if someone was never going to buy the software in the first place, Adobe would lose nothing from that person pirating it.

We really are going around in circles with this one.

Fuzzy
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07 Jan 2011, 5:10 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

But it's a fact. Data, no matter what it is, is nothing but a bunch of ones and zeroes, as I'm sure you're well aware.

So any old arrangement of random ones and zeros will do for you, or do you require some special configuration?

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 5:19 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

But it's a fact. Data, no matter what it is, is nothing but a bunch of ones and zeroes, as I'm sure you're well aware.

So any old arrangement of random ones and zeros will do for you, or do you require some special configuration?

Obviously they need to be in a "special configuration" or they're useless.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 5:44 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Fuzzy wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

But it's a fact. Data, no matter what it is, is nothing but a bunch of ones and zeroes, as I'm sure you're well aware.

So any old arrangement of random ones and zeros will do for you, or do you require some special configuration?

Obviously they need to be in a "special configuration" or they're useless.

Here's a "special configuration" for you:
110011101101111001000000110011001110101011000110110101100100000011110010110111101110101011100100111001101100101011011000110011000100001

Incidentally, that is only a 135-character string. There are over 43 duodecillion (4.346x10^40) possible binary strings of that length, yet only one of those has the same meaning as what I just posted. When you get to something as large as a complex software program like Adobe Photoshop. you have for all possible intents and purposes infinitely many binary strings to choose from. You can't just pick a binary string and have a useful program, and that is why it is disingenuous for you and other thiefs to go around saying that you're only taking "a bunch of zeroes and ones." There is a near infinite number of possible arrangements of those zeroes and ones, and there is one in particular that you want to be able to use. No one cares about zeroes and ones; you can have all the zeroes and ones you want. But arranging them in a specific way to perform a useful function is a creative work which you are not entitled to steal.

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Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 5:47 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Orwell wrote:

OK fine, Adobe owns the program. Did they say you can use it without paying? No, I'm betting they didn't.

Again, if someone was never going to buy the software in the first place, Adobe would lose nothing from that person pirating it.

Probably false in practice (I'm sure people who could pay up decide to pirate because it's cheaper) but it is still irrelevant. They own it, and nothing entitles you to take it, regardless of whether you believe you are actually hurting them or not.

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Asp-Z
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07 Jan 2011, 5:52 pm

Orwell wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

Orwell wrote:

OK fine, Adobe owns the program. Did they say you can use it without paying? No, I'm betting they didn't.

Again, if someone was never going to buy the software in the first place, Adobe would lose nothing from that person pirating it.

I certainly can't afford £400 on some software, and unless someone either needs PS for professional graphics design work or has a lot of cash to throw about, not many other people can either.

As for what entitles to me do what, that's your own subjective morals, and no one else has to adhere to them.

And as for stealing the special ones and zeroes... Again, nothing is being stolen.

Orwell
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07 Jan 2011, 5:54 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

I certainly can't afford £400 on some software, and unless someone either needs PS for professional graphics design work or has a lot of cash to throw about, not many other people can either.

That's a crock of crap. You have a Mac and other luxury goods. If you really wanted Photoshop and there was no other way to obtain it, you would pay up.

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As for what entitles to me do what, that's your own subjective morals, and no one else has to adhere to them.

It's also the law. So yes, you do have to adhere to it.

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And as for stealing the special ones and zeroes... Again, nothing is being stolen.

Would it make you feel better if I couched it in euphemism? "You are violating intellectual property." Better?

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