Viable solution to clean drinking water in developing world

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Definitely. I mean if you use South Central LA as an example, this is now a war zone between Crips and Bloods. But 50+ years ago the area was practically booming with automotive industry related work or etc and many blacks who had moved from the South were finally starting to live the American Dream™. With de-industrialization and joblessness in addition to no social organization you see the degeneration of that entire area, with people's grandfathers having made much more money (relatively speaking) then their descendants. This kind of thing happens all over the world as the money moves from place to place because the incentive is money... Not development of communities or stable social structures

In agreement there.

Question; If any, what criticisms of the Venus Project and Zeitgeist movement do you have?

Not many really. I've been supportive of those kind of ideas since before I was even aware of Zeitgeist; actually I still haven't seen any of the films, I am ashamed to say. But I have to pay bills and I can't afford to watch too many internet videos without going over my weak ass limit. I don't have any real criticisms of the whole movement. Something that does bother me is the occasional gung-ho zeitgeist conspirator blindly flaming people for supporting the 'establishment' or whatnot but I think that those people are usually just dirty hippies and definitely don't represent the whole movement

Internet limits. I hate them.

I posted this back on page 2 of this thread, which has veered off considerably, but here is something a guy i know wrote. Most of the videos contained in it are from a minute to about 10 minutes,.

"The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a plan of action for social change, a vision of what the future might be if we apply what we already know in order to achieve abundance and sustainablity for all the world people while protecting the environment.



All nations are facing a common threat; energy shortages, ecological disasters, environmental pollution, water scarcity, overpopulation, technological displacement of human labor by automation. This problems will remain unsolved as long as a few powerful nations and financial interests maintain control of and consume most of the world's resources and the monetary system prevails.



Today we have highly advanced technologies and we could easily create a world of abundance for all. It is no longer necessary to perpetuate the conscious withdrawal of efficiency by planned obsolescence, perpetuated by our old and outworn profit based system. Earth is abundant and has plentiful resources but our practice of rationing resources through monetary control is no longer relevant and is counter-productive to our survival.



This is why we advocate a Resource-Based Economy. It utilizes existing resources - rather than money - to provide an equitable method of distribution in the most humane and efficient manner. It is a system in which all goods and services are available to everyone without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude.



To better understand a resource-based economy, consider this. If all the money in the world disappeared overnight, as long as topsoil, factories, personnel and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we needed to fulfill most human needs. It is not money that people require, but rather free access to most of their needs without worrying about financial security or having to appeal to a government bureaucracy. In a resource-based economy of abundance, money will become irrelevant.



The aim of this new social design is to encourage an incentive system no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. These new incentives would encourage people toward self-fulfillment and creativity, both materially and spiritually.



Here are some links, some of these you may have already seen but ill put them here just in case you havent.



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Additional Info in response to some frequent valid concerns but also some common misconceptions/projections of the current value system into this new system.

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The Venus Project isnt a "Ruling Elite" there to tell you what you can and cant do, its an egalitarian social design that uses the scientific method (not science) for social concern - its a very simple concept.



The Scientific Method:

* Ask a Question
* Research
* Construct a Hypothesis
* Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
* Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
* Communicate Your Results

And its how all human beings naturally learn but are indoctrinated into established systems of left brain structured learning once we enter schooling age.



When a child knocks over a glass of water, they are learning about real physical phenomena like gravity and fluid dynamics, which helps them to interact with the world in a relevant way.



When a child watches mummy making jelly they are learning about the various states of liquids, from boiling the kettle producing steam, to solidifying certain materials by cooling them etc.



This is truly the most natural way of learning, unlike our established systems that teach conformity and deminish creativity and true understanding of our connection to not only the environment but each other.



Money, Barter and TVP Cities:

We wish to outgrow the need for Politics and the Monetary System because these outdated systems of control and distribution of goods and services as they are detrimental to the wellbeing of people and the planet as a whole.



We have a global population of 6.7 billion people, the best way to economically manage resources, goods and services for such large populations which is growing excponentially is in cities, where such services can be provided locally to large numbers of people simultaneously.



It is not logistally economic to have every human being living a mile away from each other with no centralised distribution of goods and services, we left that kind of culture thousands of years ago with the hunter/gatherers.



You would not be "required" to live in a TVP city, but there would be numerous benefits to doing so, such as fast and easy access to healthcare, goods and services provided within the cities, education access to resources, technology etc (i.e where those goods and services would be produced etc)



The Venus Project is a social and economic system developed to allow us to intelligently manageme the earths resources, and distriibution of goods and services to benefit people in the most efficient, ecologically friendly and humane way possible using the best technologies and methods we have available to us using a systems approach instead of the outdated systems of politics, business and money.



If you choose to live outside the city but wish to benefit from the servicves etc that city provides then you simply go to the city and use / get what you need.



If you decide you want nothing to do with a RBE or TVP then you simply live wherever you want, you become self sustaining and you do what you like, your not forced to be a part of or use the goods and services provided by the cities. If you need help building your home or creating your renewable energy or farming or w/e then im sure the egalitarian people of the cities would be only too happy to help you out, unless you prefered no help or contact with those who live in a RBE / TVP city.



If people want to barter when everything is available free its down to them, though it kind of loses its relevancy in this system when the very foundations of the whole system is to provide people with access to all goods and services free of charge, and provide thre basic neccesities of life (Clean Water, Nutrional Food, A Relevant Education, Housing and Clean Renewable Energy as a basic human right instead of seomthing you have to earn

The aim is to improve the lives of people, not control them. And with a democracy based on ideas and contribution not personal wealth or power there would be no means by which to control people.



People will still work, they just wont be working on irrelevant jobs like banking, finance, law, security services, advertising, most service industry jobs, most manufacturing jobs and anything else that can be automated.



People will study any field they have an interest in, most people will probably learn a multitude of relevant jobs that interest them as there will be no limits on education i.e cant afford to study, or tied into one field etc, because you can work wherever you want on whatever you want assuming you have the required skillset to enable you to do so safely and competently..



If you want to be a marine biologist during the summer, and train to be a brain surgeon in the evenings, and be a ski junky in the winter then you would do just that. The idea is to free people not constrain them as in the current system.



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Videos & Books

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Jacque Fresco

1. Research and Development – Jacque Fresco Discussion- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP85I0up ... 1&index=14



2. No Utopia – Jacque Fresco Discussion- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr7jKt7f ... re=related



3. Being Responsible – Jacque Fresco Discussions- Find here: </span><span>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbxe0COFIw



4. Documentary of My Life – Jacque Fresco – Directed by William Gazecki- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3cBXHLg ... 1&index=10



5. Generalism and Change – Jacque Fresco Discussions- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sWtjk9adrk



6. Science and War – Jacque Fresco Discussions- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m3wzTULrWQ



7. Social Change – Jacque Fresco Discussions- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js9U8sIBxwU



8. People of The Future – Jacque Fresco Discussions- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8IoxLoa ... re=related



9. Jacque Fresco Interviewed by Larry King 1974- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOPkGAt ... re=related



10. This is a 1st part video of Fresco made in January 2010:- Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMlXtzv ... =1&index=6



11. The Mechanistic Point of View - Find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JmkI0MXF7w



12. Past, Present, & Future of Mankind

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHUc9GuWhms

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CiURKL1 ... re=related



13. Jacque Fresco-Relation to Academia-Dec.19, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-0McAz ... ture=share



14. Are we educated yet?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEH9zKHTZqQ&feature=player_embedded15. Childhood observations, religeon etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxbiJXcW ... r_embedded



15. "conscious", problem solving, conditioning behavior, define criminal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYg7oUdK ... r_embedded



16. Investigating Behaviourhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... r_embedded



Zeitgeist Addendum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs</span>



The Economic Hitmen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Dvt2EqXF4



The Corporate Media

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOygpfEl7nE



The Money Masters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXb-LrVkuwM



RSA Animate – The Crisis of Capitalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0





A Class Divided

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BrFHq-t ... r_embedded



The Stanford Prison Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GpuB_Q2 ... r_embedded



Milgrams Obedience Study

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0H ... r_embedded



Philip Zimbardo - The Lucifer Effect (Social Psychology)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYre8SlO ... r_embedded



The Venus Project - Jacque Fresco Essay

http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-so ... sign/essay



The Venus Project - Aims and Proposals

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venu ... -proposals



The Venus Project Frequently Asked Questions

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venu ... uction/faq



Future by Design

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpp7TGIcIfk



Peter Joseph Radio Shows:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/peter-joseph



Money, the Profit Motive and Sustainability:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5P3rJ55UB8



Where are we now?

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODJDUpYFaHo



Where are we going?

part 1: http://vimeo.com/7857584

part 2: http://vimeo.com/7938805



Orientation Guide

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 163636261#



Objections to The Venus Project

http://vimeo.com/10802138



The Future of Economics - A Perspective from The Zeitgeist Movement

http://vimeo.com/13029324



Automation & Unemployment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Z8TR4ToNs



The Venus Project Design

www.thevenusproject.com

www.thevenusprojectdesign.com



Andrew Buxton

The Venus Project Design



If people want to barter when everything is available free its down to them, though it kind of loses its relevancy in this system when the very foundations of the whole system is to provide people with access to all goods and services free of charge."

Meep Meep. That is one of the very unscientific ideas going around which is detrimental to advancement. It is a coincidence that money was around during the invention of the typewriter. But money has been around far longer. It was the typewriter and other inventions which raised us from a primitive society (tech wise) not money.
This is how statistics are easily misleading. Two things which occur at the same time are grouped to be together. They are not always linked to each other.

PatrickNeville I still have yet to watch the movie on the Venus Project.

Without money the typewriter would never have been developed in the first place and an industry capable of mass producing typewriters at a price most people could afford never would have happened.

ruveyn

That is speculation. There is no way to prove that money had anything to do with the invention of the typewriter. Without typewriters there was no way books could be mass produced at a price people could afford.

Name one single solitary cashless society that developed mass industry for mass consumption of products. Even is the typewriter had been invented by a lonely inventor in has garage, without money capital it could not be manufactured in mass and distributed on a wide scale.

Just like the song in -Cabaret- says: Money Makes the World go 'Round.

ruveyn

Japan had mass industry (at a primitive level) before they used cash/fiat currency.

Before their Meiji Restoration period and centuries before the arrival of Europeans, Japan developed something similar to standardization and interchangeable components in many of their day to day products.

For example, homes were built using pre-made components that were mass produced to exact dimensions. This was a standardization that was nation-wide. This way a person building a structure could purchase walls and floor pieces from any vendor and they'd interlock/match.



I only find two flaws in their resource based economy effort.

First is that they do not take into account the human element of things. Yes, the computer can run the resource allocation to cities and stuff, yes the economy can and will work as they think it will. People wont. Even without cash people will still jockey for position, privileges and power.

The power that cash now gives will be replaced with decision-making power or access to things others wont have access to kind of privileges. This has been so before humans used cash, has been so as we have cash and will be so after the days of cash are over.

Second is the fact that for the resource based economy to work there needs to be a massive change in infrastructure from industry all the way to housing. In essence all cities need to be knocked down and rebuilt...because only venus project-like sustainable cities will be able to equally distribute/give access to resources. This would need to happen on a global scale as well otherwise the resources from one region of the world wont make their way to another where they are desperately needed.

I only find two flaws in their resource based economy effort.

First is that they do not take into account the human element of things. Yes, the computer can run the resource allocation to cities and stuff, yes the economy can and will work as they think it will. People wont. Even without cash people will still jockey for position, privileges and power.

The power that cash now gives will be replaced with decision-making power or access to things others wont have access to kind of privileges. This has been so before humans used cash, has been so as we have cash and will be so after the days of cash are over.

Second is the fact that for the resource based economy to work there needs to be a massive change in infrastructure from industry all the way to housing. In essence all cities need to be knocked down and rebuilt...because only venus project-like sustainable cities will be able to equally distribute/give access to resources. This would need to happen on a global scale as well otherwise the resources from one region of the world wont make their way to another where they are desperately needed.[/quote]

Agree there.

I'd hope than in time people through that kind of society would be more compassionate and stop competing for power. That aspect should eventually resolve itself.

Making change for the better. Now that is a difficult thing to get off the ground. It does take everyone being on that same level.

I think for such a project to occur we would need to drastically reduce the population. Perhaps to less then a billion. This could happen if everyone limits themselves to one child. Every two people just contribute one child leads to just a 50% gain. If this generation and the following generations follow this policy we could stabilize the population eventually, and the explosive 20th century malignancy will resolve itself with time. Then perhaps we could think about abandoning old cities to nature or simply as museum exhibits and building Venus Project style cities.

When? During their feudal period in our 15 and 16th century. After the Meji restoration Japan went Gung Ho on modernization. That included a money society. You hit the target right. A cashless economy is a primitive economy. And Japan did not have mass production before the modernization. Why? They did not have the machines and the power sources. They needed steel AND steam. Prior to the modernization their steel went into making Samuri swards. After modernization their steel went into making rails for the railways.

ruveyn

True. Don't forget battleships, aircraft carriers and crappy tankettes that required little more then a mortar round to disable

If you only see a bird during the day, does the bird only exist during the day?

Ruveyn your idea is based on coincidence.

"Communism failed in Russia because communism will never work" There were many reasons communism did not work which had nothing to do with the idea itself. Such as the corrupt dictatorship required to bring communism in at the time. Such as the incredible poverty which communism was brought into. The working class which communism was brought into serve died out.

And now people say that communism isn't working in Cuba? We don't know if it is the fault of communism. Not until the United States lifts their blockage of trade on the country.

Now these facts about communism are here to show that we cannot know the truth about certain things because there is no scientific way of finding out the truth. The fact that there has not been a MODERN civilization without money does not mean it wouldn't work. It does not mean it would work either. But there not being one is no excuse for saying it will not work.

The whole Russian Communism thing is a gray area to me. While de facto Communist, de jure I would count the Stalin period as neither right nor left wing. Stalin was using atheism to wrest the hearts and minds of the Russian people away from the Orthodox Church. When the 'Great Patriotic War' began (what we know as WW2), after some time Stalin relaxed his repression on the church and in fact encouraged it because he became aware that the population needed it. During the war you see many Tsarist army medals revived and etc. So he was really an opportunist, in terms of his politics.
Another reason I would wager to say that Russian Communism fell has a lot to do with the period of time between the Revolution and the end of the Civil War. The Civil War lead to militarized types assuming positions of leadership in the party. The Civil War and the militarization of the Communist Party is what, I think, led directly to it's failure to create an 'ideal' Communist state

My main point is that it was a grey area.