Page 4 of 10 [ 155 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:      

28 Oct 2011, 10:39 pm

Oh ... so that's how this game is played ...

Fnord wrote:
Ruveyn has been admirably holding the line.

There is no empirical evidence to support any claim for the existence of more than one universe. By this, I mean that there is no valid record of ever having detected, examined, accessed, explored, colonized, traded with, or conquered any alternate realm of existence.

Those who claim otherwise have yet to provide evidence of their claims, because it is up to the claimant to provide their own supporting evidence. Besides which, absence of evidence, while not evidence of absence, is sufficient cause for reasonable doubt, and the complete absence of empirical evidence for the existence of any universe other than our own makes any claim for a "multiverse" exceptionally doubtful. Even those who claim expertise in quantum physics use their versions of the "multiverse" concept as mere tools to explain conflicts in their mathematical models of how the universe operates at the quantum level.

(Yes Ruve, I know that I'm no QM/QT expert, but I do know this much.)

Even if "Lots of people" believe that at least one universe exists outside of our universe, neither the strength of the belief nor the popularity of that belief can validate the belief itself.

Of course, I could be wrong (but that does not mean that I am wrong), so if anyone can open a portal into an alternate universe and allow me to pass through, look around, and come back safely, then I will believe. Otherwise, this topic seems to be more appropriate for the "Speculative Fiction" forum, and not even considered a possible topic of serious theoretical or hypothetical discourse.

What have I won?



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

28 Oct 2011, 11:36 pm

Um no I do not but it would be neat if their was such a thing 8)



shrox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,295
Location: OK let's go.

28 Oct 2011, 11:55 pm

I sincerely doubt that in a multiverse there are multiple "you's". Say your parents were maybe less popular there. They go out with a different group of friends on the night they met here, they never meet and you're never born.

Say a pretty lady walking down the street goes left instead of right, in our left turning universe, she causes an accident as she bends down to pet a kitten. In the right turning universe, no kitten over to the right, no petting, no accident.

Endless permutations like that would quickly unravel any parallels of a multiverse.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

29 Oct 2011, 7:13 am

Joker wrote:
Um no I do not but it would be neat if their was such a thing 8)


I agree. I do not accept the many-worlds hypothesis for lack of empirical evidence, but I find the idea extremely amusing. It is also a steady source of alternate time line stories.

The first one such that I read was -Bring the Jubilee- by Ward Moore where in the Confederacy won the War Between the States.

ruveyn



lau
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,798
Location: Somerset UK

29 Oct 2011, 7:23 am

shrox wrote:
...
Endless permutations like that would quickly unravel any parallels of a multiverse.

Not really. Each and every quantum effect splits off a pair of universes. That results in a rather large, but still finite number of universes.


_________________
"Striking up conversations with strangers is an autistic person's version of extreme sports." Kamran Nazeer


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

29 Oct 2011, 7:55 am

langers wrote:
langers wrote:
First of all if you have no imagination and no belief in an idea then how would you advance in any way. To truly be a scientist I think that one must guess, predict, assume, dream. If no person thought to explain any thing or experiment even though they did not already have absolute proof we would still be in the stone age!! If your soul purpose is to go around disbelieving in everything and wanting absolute proof for anything before even looking into it you will not get very far. A long time ago nobody believed that the sun was the center of the solar system. Where would we be if everybody said "where's the proof" and nobody tried to find any proof because they did not believe anything else was possible.

Personally I do not know if I believe in multiple universes. I just am not sure. It is quite possible that there are, it is just something I have not looked into very much. On the other hand I do have a very basic understanding of the behavior of subatomic wave/particle properties. I believe that gravity is a emergent property of strong force and weak force, in the same way that "solidity" of our environment is an emergent property of electromagnetic force aka electroweak force. Every sense and experience we have is an "illusion" based on the interactions of wave/particles. The fact that we do not fall through the floor is because of the electromagnetic forces of our mass of particles and the floors mass of particles. There is plenty, even much more then enough, space between the atoms that we should by all means fall right through the floor and yet we do not. The strong and weak forces that interact with and or on the gluons and quarks of the protons and neutrons of the nucleus hold each to each other, the farther the sub-particles get from each other the stronger the force becomes there by pulling the sub-particle with more intensity. this must only act in a determinant area, once the area is breached the force is "broken" or the interaction with the other forces such as the electromagnetic force between the protons and neutrons dominates it the particle can "escape". Perhaps this force is strengthened by the shear number of interacting particles in a massive object such as a planet or star or even the mass of a human (all things have there own gravitational field that is in relation to the mass of the object). In or when you compare the properties of gravity it is quite similar to the properties of strong and weak force. Albeit in the same way that water molecules has the same properties as an ocean. (look at it on the atomic vs macro scale in the way that hydrogen bonds react the same in both or like a lego has the same properties of a building of legos) This simplifies things and usually the simplest answer is the right answer. How this correlates to multiple universes is that it may point to a different way of thinking of things such as dark matter and black holes.

Albert Einstein, Paul Dirac, Murray Gell-Mann, George Zweig, Sheldon Gladshow, Adbus Salam, Steven Weinberg. Just to name a few of the people who have done research and work in these areas.

I think that another thought process that is important would be that as atoms become individualized and lose the elemental properties (separating down to the smallest possible denominator as far as protons neutrons and electron and the other partials that interact) as in expansion the "element" would become a low energy "gas" in which case it would lose volume as long as the particles are kept at a distance that eliminates interaction this would create perfect conditions for a "gravitational" force that supersedes electromagnetic force which could be how black holes work, in this case the big bang could be the culmination of all matter in this way. There is no reason to think that this is the only case, if it is possible to repeat the intake and expansion of the universe then there is no reason why this could not happen somewhere else. I don't know about membrane universes colliding but "bubble" universes make sense.

I don't need to go into all the information provided in the rest of the thread, it's there if you care you can go back and look at it all. NOTHING is absolute in science, gravity does not work EVERYWHERE and classic physics falls apart on the atomic level. It is not dreaming to contemplate the possibilities of the universe, it is science. In the past (less then 100 yrs ago) computers were science fiction, before that horseless carriages, germs, a round earth, atoms, must I go on. A healthy sense of skepticism is only useful in the scientific community if it is directed at experiments to prove, disprove or adjust theories. And a theory in science is ANY explanation of a natural law, E=mc2 is a theory, the gas "laws" are theory's, the earth is round is a theory, any thing that in any way at any time from the big band to the end of time that has any possibility of being disproved is a theory. This is the definition of the scientific approach!

Instead of saying "that sounds like science fiction" or "I don't see any proof" it would be nice if some people would offer something of substance to the discussion. Show me proof it can't be possible or provide a theory to what you believe or disbelieve.


All theories that purport to be science must face A Moment of Truth, that is they must stand up for the empirical test. If a theory produces no testable hypotheses it is not science. If it is science the hypotheses must lead to a quantitative prediction that can be tested empirically. If it fails the test (assuming the test is sound) the hypothesis is (at least in part) FALSE. Negative tests imply busted hypotheses which means the underlying theory is not sound -- it must be reworked or replaced.

That is why science succeeds and philosophy, theology fail. Experiment, measure and observation is where science meets the Road.

ruveyn

ruveyn



mar00
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 603
Location: Germany

29 Oct 2011, 9:08 am

(Observing patterns in the CMB led to some potential evidence for more than one universe to exist.)
IMO people who have not even stepped a foot in the theory allow themselves to speculate way too much.
Anything that exceeds the awesomeness barrier is put on a stand. Dream all you like but do not mesh it science then.

Orwell wrote:
user1001 wrote:
I am a full believer in M theory

It is not appropriate to express "belief" or disbelief in a scientific notion until you have data and evidence.

QFT
physorg.com wrote:
In a new study, Stanford physicists Andrei Linde and Vitaly Vanchurin have calculated the number of all possible universes, coming up with an answer of 10^10^16. If that number sounds large, the scientists explain that it would have been even more humongous, except that we observers are limited in our ability to distinguish more universes; otherwise, there could be as many as 10^10^10^7 universes.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

29 Oct 2011, 9:14 am

mar00 wrote:
(Observing patterns in the CMB led to some potential evidence for more than one universe to exist.)
IMO people who have not even stepped a foot in the theory allow themselves to speculate way too much.
Anything that exceeds the awesomeness barrier is put on a stand. Dream all you like but do not mesh it science then.
Orwell wrote:
user1001 wrote:
I am a full believer in M theory

It is not appropriate to express "belief" or disbelief in a scientific notion until you have data and evidence.

QFT
physorg.com wrote:
In a new study, Stanford physicists Andrei Linde and Vitaly Vanchurin have calculated the number of all possible universes, coming up with an answer of 10^10^16. If that number sounds large, the scientists explain that it would have been even more humongous, except that we observers are limited in our ability to distinguish more universes; otherwise, there could be as many as 10^10^10^7 universes.


All based on a speculation that is not well supported by empirical evidence.



mar00
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 603
Location: Germany

29 Oct 2011, 9:29 am

ruveyn wrote:
All based on a speculation that is not well supported by empirical evidence.

Obviously. I did not say that in my post. qft was for orwell and that fancy number for me. (just to clarify myself if needed otherwise please ignore)



huggs
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 54

29 Oct 2011, 11:53 am

Who here has read 'The Hidden Reality' by Michael Greene?
I think the most likely multiverse scenario is the 'bubble universes', as it relies upon the universe as we know it being just as we know it, only supposition made is that the universe is infinite, which is a pretty believable supposition if you ask me.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:      

29 Oct 2011, 12:24 pm

Who here has read 'Quest Crosstime' by Andre Norton?
I think the most likely real-life scenario is the 'single universe', as it relies upon the universe as we know it being just as we know it, only supposition made is that the universe is infinite, which is a pretty believable supposition if you ask me.



shrox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,295
Location: OK let's go.

29 Oct 2011, 12:45 pm

lau wrote:
shrox wrote:
...
Endless permutations like that would quickly unravel any parallels of a multiverse.

Not really. Each and every quantum effect splits off a pair of universes. That results in a rather large, but still finite number of universes.


I meant the idea of split universes remaining identical is not really viable.



lau
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,798
Location: Somerset UK

29 Oct 2011, 5:58 pm

shrox wrote:
lau wrote:
shrox wrote:
...
Endless permutations like that would quickly unravel any parallels of a multiverse.

Not really. Each and every quantum effect splits off a pair of universes. That results in a rather large, but still finite number of universes.


I meant the idea of split universes remaining identical is not really viable.

If two universes are identical, they are the same universe.
If two universes are almost identical, they are almost identical.
If two universes were almost identical, but the next event causes them to become identical, then they have become the same universe.
I quite like the idea that there may be some tendency for universes to do this, and then you can get to the concept of a large, but finite, number of universes.
Maybe this is true pastafarianism?


_________________
"Striking up conversations with strangers is an autistic person's version of extreme sports." Kamran Nazeer


shrox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,295
Location: OK let's go.

29 Oct 2011, 7:35 pm

lau wrote:
shrox wrote:
lau wrote:
shrox wrote:
...
Endless permutations like that would quickly unravel any parallels of a multiverse.

Not really. Each and every quantum effect splits off a pair of universes. That results in a rather large, but still finite number of universes.


I meant the idea of split universes remaining identical is not really viable.

If two universes are identical, they are the same universe.
If two universes are almost identical, they are almost identical.
If two universes were almost identical, but the next event causes them to become identical, then they have become the same universe.
I quite like the idea that there may be some tendency for universes to do this, and then you can get to the concept of a large, but finite, number of universes.
Maybe this is true pastafarianism?


No, you can't unburn something, or unring a bell. Some things will prevent any event that would allow them to return to being identical.

Just because two things are identical does not mean they are the same, any more than twins are the same person, or a mass produced product is the same physical object. One might be broken, the other not.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

29 Oct 2011, 8:19 pm

shrox wrote:
[

Just because two things are identical does not mean they are the same, any more than twins are the same person, or a mass produced product is the same physical object. One might be broken, the other not.


You are equivocating somewhat. Even if two twins had the same genome, the history of their bodies in the uterus is different.

ruveyn



shrox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,295
Location: OK let's go.

29 Oct 2011, 8:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:
shrox wrote:
[

Just because two things are identical does not mean they are the same, any more than twins are the same person, or a mass produced product is the same physical object. One might be broken, the other not.


You are equivocating somewhat. Even if two twins had the same genome, the history of their bodies in the uterus is different.

ruveyn


You're so aspie...isn't it fun?