I HATE WINDOWS 7!! !! !! !

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No, Leave it there... This is not RailPage.

Lets all get back to the topic at hand shall we?

Ok, as you wish.

Ok I was not all that impressed with Linux Mint 12, so I decided to install ubuntu 11.10 and I was not impressed with unity, so what I did was install gnome classic and everything works great and faster.

I even installed windows xp back on my machine and I had nothing but problems installing drivers for my gforce 7600gs card, everything loaded great with linux and I am up and running.

You dont have to use unity

where do you get this thing, i want to check it out. i've never actually seen anything the runs linux unless i do but am just unaware of it.

i think they said the ps3 runs it, but i'm not sure.

i have to say the biggest annoyance with 7 is windows movie maker has to be downloaded, and i no longer know how to run it anymore, the new interface is way different then the last one. but i love how you can do simple edits to pics without having to load a paint program. it's annoying to have to do that when i simple want to crop and inch of the pic.

it was annoying trying to get some programs running and even now sony vegas is finicky but only if i make a video more then 6 minutes. there are good and bad things with the new os but i'm more happy then frustrated with it.

What I did was go into terminal type SUDO APT-GET INSTALL GNOME it then ask for your password and it loads, to access gnome classic you just logout of unity and before you type in your password before logging in, you just change unity to gnome classic using the the icon top right by the password box. Then you have gnome classic.

It loads a lot quicker.

they have different uses,
different philosophies and different budgets.

as said by others before its only a matter of time before mac becomes vulnerable to large scale attacks and linux lacks the wide support and user friendlyness required by the average desk jockey

BS. If someone could target all the wealthy people with their posh Macs they'd have done it. In fact, they have, but with trojans which the user has to install, because you simply cannot create a virus for a Mac. It uses the same UNIX foundations as Linux, which is the same as is used in web servers, banks, and so on. It is very secure.

The "security by obscurity" argument you are putting forward is rubbish. Apple right out advertise that their computers have no viruses. If someone could knock them off their high horse by developing one, they'd have done it, yet in the whole 10 years OS X has existed, they have not. Security by obscurity does not work. UNIX security does. Security experts agree on this.

Now, exploits which allow targeted hacks are another issue entirely, but unless you get on the wrong side of some bad people, all you really need to do is make sure you have a decent firewall setup. The UNIX firewall, iptables (Linux) and ipfilter (OS X and BSD), is one of most secure on any system.

As for user-friendlyness of Linux, the support may be an issue, but OS itself is so easy that if I gave my gran an Ubuntu laptop, she'd be able to use it fine.

what i ment was more people own windows then anything else, that goes for businesses and individuals.

the ratio of windows users to mac users is probably very high, it's like when someone goes and robs a place to sell stuff on the black market, they aren't going to take stuff hardly anyone uses, no they are going to take the most popular items.

basicly there isn't enough mac and linux users to justify taking the time to hack or infect them, most hackers bother with windows because they know more people use windows and there is a better chance of success hacking windows.

if mac was more popular i'm pretty damn sure it would be in the same position windows is in now. you underestimate the skill hackers have, because it isn't "if they can hack it" it's when, nothing is considered completely safe from failure. if a hacker wanted to ruin someone's mac or linux all they would need is time.

and do you think viruses are that rare, alot of them are packed in with other files, i got a nasty backdoor program from downloading game fmvs, it was called delf [which i should add was only ever recorded to harm xp i got it on my vista], i finally got rid of it with avast running in dos mode, and by then it had spread through a good bit of the system files. and another name deep throat, a trojan i was lucky i caught it early.

if you download stuff all over the internet you are going to get infected, i know because i do get a ton of trojans, worms, spyware, adware, backdoors, malicious cookies, etc... my last hardrive failure was a virus, and most of these i didn't know they had slipped in till i was fighting them off. alot of them i caught at the last minute. you can even get one browsing webpages you don't need to install anything. there was an ad that was running on devaint art that kept screwing us over, and there was little we could do till the site itself took up the defensive.

there was a hacker stalking the nexus, we were lucky the site was already on the defensive and was fighting against them, they think it was one of the modders who was banned for being a jerk and was hacking the site for revenge, the nexus had blocked him in a section of the site and was the only thing keeping him from hacking the thousands of people that are on that place daily including me.

and if hackers were able to attack the psn, bioware, and trion. then i doubt there is much they can't do. if they managed to hurt sony one of the biggest names in electronics, bioware which is a branch of EA who is one of the largest video game companies today, and trion i mmo that is becoming very popular. do you really think a simple mac would be that hard to figure out.

i doubt the secruity in the psn is really weak, along with bioware's. and people are already trying to screw people over in rift, i ended up reporting 20 or more bots in the short time i played.

people have been able to hack world of warcraft, they've altered the terrain, spawned dragons in the middle of cities etc...

in kingdom hearts 2 the coders at khvids have found out to modify the ai in the game, and this is on a hard coded disk that most think are unmodifiable once finalized, this code that no one will give out modifies bosses to fight eachother. they even have programs to rip the models off the disk, i know because i did it.

hackers can do anything if they want to take the time to figure it out, and macs are not perfect, because people aren't perfect, everything can be harmed anything can fail. even the space shuttle blew up in 1986, and that is built by nasa, for crying out loud.

if there were enough mac users to justify hacking them, i bet they would. when a hacker goes to hack anything unless they personally know the place or person, they are looking for anything that gets them money which is why they attack businesses more then anything.

and you should just believe someones word, apple says that to get you to buy their product, any company will do that, they overhype things to get you to buy the thing they are selling.

like skyrim was hyped to death, it was said to be the best this and that, and when it is released it already had problems out the wazoo, nearly broken and unplayable on the ps3, half the quests were broken for some people, heck esbern in the main quest has no voice and the only way to get through his quest is by using the console and clicking on him like crazy, because he has no triggers. in all my years of gaming i never ran across something like that. they have to patch and fix this game left and right and have been almost nonstop since the release.

when win 7 was just released it was hyped and hyped, it was the best os yet, and it really isn't xp was more stable i hate to say it. like gaming computers are said to be really good, but alot of people manage to build better rigs from scratch.

so you can't trust what a company says.

If what you're saying about the number of users being a factor is true, why would people bother to create the trojans for OS X? Also remember that a lot of hackers have a financial motive nowadays, and Macs are generally owned by more wealthy people because they're high end products.

PSN was hacked because they ran old software on their servers, and that software had known exploits. As I said, targeted hacks are another issue, and if your system has known exploits and you're running a server of all things then you will get hacked, simple as that.

A lot of hacks are also possible because the webpages hosted by the server have shoddy PHP scripts which allow the hackers to get easy access to databases.

The point stands that many security experts agree UNIX is fundamentally more secure than Windows because of how the system is structured. The user is separate from the kernel by design in a UNIX environment, whereas Windows treats the user as a god and lets them directly interact with it. That's why viruses are so easy to develop for Windows.

unix isn't anymore unhackable then windows is, and yes hackers are looking for money, and more people have windows your odds are better attacking windows then mac. people go after something more common then less common. but a far as viruses, there are ones for windows, gaming consoles, phones, if something is connected to the net in any way shape or form it is venerable to attack. it's just that no one is willing to waste time on something hardly anyone owns.

as far as viruses i swear some people make them because they know they can.

also being seperate from the structure of the os can be good and bad, if you can't access it you can't fix it, something can get in the underling structure and you couldn't do squat about it it also limits customization as well. game systems are a shining example of that, but there are consoles that were considered unhackable and are now hacked to death, the dreamcast being one. heck to play jap games on a american ps2 you need a disk and lid with a hole it it. that's it.

but i don't trust anything unless i go through it myself as far as electronics go and products i buy. because all a company wants is your business and they will say anything to get it, and the bigger the company the more greedy they are. small businesses are more humble because money is power and bigger companys have more money. walmart is the best example they often say they have the lowest price on anything but foodland across the block sells things walmart has for cheaper. but walmart is a huge company and is widely known they have a ton of customers simply because they have a ton of stores worldwide.

it is more likely to find a walmart in a plaza then nearly any other store. same thing with windows more people own it then mac, mac owners may be rich but they are a minority. like more people shop at walmart then some store that no one knows about with ridiculously expensive crap. and because walmarts are more popular and have more customers on average, so they are more likely to be robbed. most people go after something more popular also because if they attack one person they are also more likely to get caught, if they attack a few computers in a huge business it would be harder to track. so it's money and being undetected. if you hack someone and get caught that really is pointless. but if you hack one server in a huge business you can get away with it more often and people have a ton of times.

it's basic common sense.

Jetfox, I think you need to spend some time working with a real operating system in the real world.
Seriously, there are so many holes in your arguments I have no idea where to start - so I won't.

You literally make no sense, and you contradict yourself a LOT...

You say people make viruses just because they know they can, so why have they not made even one for OS X or Linux? Surely, if they're doing it because they can, they wouldn't care how many people use it?

Think for a minute: there are fewer UNIX desktops than Windows desktops, true, but the number of users is growing, so are you telling me that the reason there has never been a virus for UNIX is purely down to the fact that it's not as popular as Windows? That might hold up if it happened to have fewer viruses, but if it has none at all, surely that suggests there's a technical element involved?

Besides, as I said before, obviously the interest in OS X is there because trojans have been developed for it.

Bringing up phones is interesting as well. There are trojans for Android but none for the iPhone, because of how the App Store works. But both iOS devices and Android devices (and I'm counting phones, tablets, and all sorts here) are very popular and owned by lots of people, but they're also both based on UNIX (iOS is based on OS X and Android is based on Linux) but there are no viruses for those either. Again, the motivation is there, but no viruses.

As for your claim about the UNIX environment limiting customisation... I think I'll just leave that and let others decide what that says about your technical knowledge.

Also, I'd just like to point out that Unix is the Internet.

I think Jetfox makes some good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynTtuwQYNmk

Proof of concepts are not the same as in-the-wild viruses.

Also, that would count as a trojan even if it was in the wild, as the user must install it.