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GreatSphinx
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28 Jul 2011, 3:03 am

My daughter (who is typically very good at math) has always been confused about not "distributing" powers into a binomial (x + 2)^2 is (x + 2)(x + 2) not (x^2 + x^2). She knew it shouldn't be done, but for her, if she does not have a reason, she does not fully understand (like the discussion we had yesterday of why 0^0 = 1). I finally ended up telling her this, but I don't know if there is actually something out there that states this.

Everything in math comes down to addition and subtraction. Multiplication and division is just adding and subtracting multiple times. Powers and roots are just multiplication and subtracting several times. They have an order:
1. + and -
2. * and /
3. ^ and roots

You must go in order for these rules to work correctly. It is true that powers and roots are also adding and subtracting several times, but you must arrive there by using multiplication or division. If you try to put a power into a quantity with an addition or subtraction sign, the quantity becomes invalid because the step of multiplication is missing. In the same sense, you can put a power into a monomial in the form of a constant and one or more variables (or just more than one variable) because step 2 is being used, and that is next to step 3. There is no skipping order.

There is a little more to it, but that's the basics of it.

She then related it to: PE MD AS (orders of operations) and asked if that was similar. I told her it was.

Now, when she makes a small mistake like that in her algebra, I just remind her of "Mom's Law." The Mom's Law thing is a joke, but is there actually a rule out there (not just something assumed) that states this?


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Lucywlf
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28 Jul 2011, 3:19 am

OK, let's work an example, substituting 3 for x.

(3+2)^2=(3+2)(3+2)=(5)(5)=25.

(3^2+3^2)= (9+9)=18.

The statement in brackets is always worked first, no matter what it is, and the functions inside he brackets are worked in the same order inside the brackets as you have listed here.



GreatSphinx
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28 Jul 2011, 3:33 am

True, but she wanted to know *why*. She is always driving her teachers crazy with these questions. They either tell her it does not matter and just accept it (even though she is finishing up Algebra 1, she has the thoughts of someone who is in advanced level calculus, she just doesn't know all the rules to do it yet), or they tell her she will find out later. I think last year was the first time a teacher said that he actually did not remember. She is bothered if she just "accepts" that something is the way it is without understanding why (she is compelled to figure out why). It is like anything to the power of zero is one. She watched a proof on it yesterday (on youtube) which she understood [the steps], but still complained that they did not answer her question.

It's like providing a proof that 1 = 2. Everyone knows that is not correct, but unless you know the rules of mathematics, you may not know why, because the proof (at a glance) looks correct. She is looking for an example why it does not work. Substituting in numbers for variables might help things, but unless she understands that dividing by zero is illegal because you cannot have an amount of nothing, she just *knows* it is wrong (and with her you do have to go beyond telling her that you cannot divide by zero. Her next question would be "Why." Although in her defense, she does know and understand this one).


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28 Jul 2011, 6:34 am

GreatSphinx wrote:
True, but she wanted to know *why*.

Because it is in parentheses. The convention that has been established is that if it's in parentheses, it gets evaluated first. (x+2)^2 is [b]defined[/] as meaning (x+2)(x+2). There is no "proof" of this fact- it is a definition.


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karenina
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28 Jul 2011, 6:37 am

I don't think there's much you can tell her beyond what you have already. The brackets show that the function of ^2 is being applied to the entity (x+2). As long as things are in brackets everything outside the brackets will treat it as one number, not as two individuals. The closest thing I can think of to your rule is probably the PEMDAS thing (we used to use BODMAS but it's pretty much the same I think).

I generally think of powers (e.g. x^n) as what you get if 1 is multiplied by the number x an n number of times. I think this is just my brain making up rules rather than it being a solid rule, but it makes sense for me.



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28 Jul 2011, 6:51 am

GreatSphinx wrote:
...you do have to go beyond telling her that you cannot divide by zero. Her next question would be "Why." Although in her defense, she does know and understand this one).

Because if you divide by 0, your computer will have a blue screen :D.

But seriously, the following links have plenty of explanations why you can't divide by 0. Show them to your daughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero#In_algebra
http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.divideby0.html
http://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/math/0by0.html



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28 Jul 2011, 7:40 am

With most mathematical concepts, you just have to try working a problem another way and not getting a correct solution. You may have to try lots of numbers until you find one that doesn't work.

As for dividing by zero: ask her if she can count by zero. You can count by ones or twos or threes, but if you add zero to zero, what do you get?

To have a number you can divide into another number, you have to be able to count in increments of that number. Because basically all multiplication is about is a shortcut to counting by one number to get to another number.



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28 Jul 2011, 9:19 am

GreatSphinx wrote:
My daughter (who is typically very good at math) has always been confused about not "distributing" powers into a binomial (x + 2)^2 is (x + 2)(x + 2) not (x^2 + x^2). She knew it shouldn't be done, but for her, if she does not have a reason, she does not fully understand (like the discussion we had yesterday of why 0^0 = 1). I finally ended up telling her this, but I don't know if there is actually something out there that states this.

Everything in math comes down to addition and subtraction. Multiplication and division is just adding and subtracting multiple times. Powers and roots are just multiplication and subtracting several times. They have an order:
1. + and -
2. * and /
3. ^ and roots

You must go in order for these rules to work correctly. It is true that powers and roots are also adding and subtracting several times, but you must arrive there by using multiplication or division. If you try to put a power into a quantity with an addition or subtraction sign, the quantity becomes invalid because the step of multiplication is missing. In the same sense, you can put a power into a monomial in the form of a constant and one or more variables (or just more than one variable) because step 2 is being used, and that is next to step 3. There is no skipping order.

There is a little more to it, but that's the basics of it.

She then related it to: PE MD AS (orders of operations) and asked if that was similar. I told her it was.

Now, when she makes a small mistake like that in her algebra, I just remind her of "Mom's Law." The Mom's Law thing is a joke, but is there actually a rule out there (not just something assumed) that states this?


Look up the distributive and commutative laws.

ruveyn



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28 Jul 2011, 10:56 am

You don't distribute addition either. 1+(2+3) = 1+2+3 not (1+2)+(1+3) (this could also be said as "addition is not distributive").

And you can't flip the operands for exponentiation: x^n is not n^x (this could also be said as "exponentiation is not commutative").

There are 2 things in math: abstract ideas that are related to each other in certain ways, and how we write those ideas down. Order of operations (which operations we happen to do first) is all about how we write stuff down.

Sometimes it makes a lot of sense how we write stuff, sometimes someone just made something up and it stuck for no real reason.

Whether or not an operation is commutative or distributive is actually about the abstract ideas. Something like that can be proven to be true (or false), and it doesn't matter how you write it, it will still be true (or false).

karenina wrote:
I generally think of powers (e.g. x^n) as what you get if 1 is multiplied by the number x an n number of times. I think this is just my brain making up rules rather than it being a solid rule, but it makes sense for me.

That's a good way to look at it. You can extend it to negative n's by saying that if n is negative, divide 1 by x an n number of times. I don't know if you can extend it to non-integer n's, though.


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GreatSphinx
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28 Jul 2011, 1:50 pm

I appreciate all the responses, but that's not what I was trying to ask. :) I am sorry if I was not clear. I was awake from getting sick, and couldn't go back to sleep. My head was groggy and I was trying to use the computer to help me fall asleep again.

Quote:
Because it is in parentheses. The convention that has been established is that if it's in parentheses, it gets evaluated first. (x+2)^2 is defined as meaning (x+2)(x+2). There is no "proof" of this fact- it is a definition.

Yes, I realize that, but she was not asking that. She knows the definitions, the mechanics and where and how to apply them (she just had a little trouble remembering yesterday).

She now understands how it is that the rule is violated when you do that to a binomial. What I was trying to ask is if my explanation was already covered in some rule. You know, like why is it that the commutative and distributive properties work the way they do?

Quote:
Everything in math comes down to addition and subtraction. Multiplication and division is just adding and subtracting multiple times. Powers and roots are just multiplication and division several times. They have an order:
1. + and -
2. * and /
3. ^ and roots

You must go in order for these rules to work correctly. It is true that powers and roots are also adding and subtracting several times, but you must arrive there by using multiplication or division. If you try to put a power into a quantity with an addition or subtraction sign, the quantity becomes invalid because the step of multiplication is missing. In the same sense, you can put a power into a monomial in the form of a constant and one or more variables (or just more than one variable) because step 2 is being used, and that is next to step 3. There is no skipping order.

There is a little more to it, but that's the basics of it.

She then related it to: PE MD AS (orders of operations) and asked if that was similar. I told her it was.


Basically, she did not want to know "that" it works, but "how" it works. She knows that (x + 2)(x + 2) is not the same as (x^2 + 2^2). She was just confusing herself as to why the rule worked the way it does. Using the order of operations for an example: She knows to use it and when it needs to be applied. But up until yesterday when I told her what is quoted above, she did not know why and how the order of operations did what they did. All she knew is that if she did not use them correctly, she would not get the right answer.

She knows exactly what to do in math, but when she does not understand the intricacies (the small minute details that most of us do not even think about) of some things, she can become confused.

As for the divide by zero, I did show her a site and she figured it out.

Quote:
Because if you divide by 0, your computer will have a blue screen

I also heard that black holes are created when God divides by zero. :)


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28 Jul 2011, 2:43 pm

Alternative perspectives on things are always useful in maths, helping to build intuition.

You can think of (x+2)^2 as equalling the area of a square whose sides are x+2 in length.

Image

So you can think of the area as being (x+2)^2.
Or, equivalently as the sum of the areas of the 4 components i.e. x^2 + 2x + 2x + 4.

As for 0^0, I wouldn't even go there just yet :) Saying 0^0=1 isn't quite as "true" as saying 1+1=2. In the former case it's more of a convention to say it's 1, but you might want to consider how zero to the power of any positive number is always zero - from that perspective the calculus idea of a "limit" would suggest 0^0=0. The fact is that, as with asking what 1/0 is, just because you can ask a question, it doesn't mean there has to be a simple numerical answer. (Another example - what is the biggest whole number?)

On the idea of "Everything in math comes down to addition and subtraction", it's a good observation that multiplying is just repeated addition and powers are just repeated multiplications. You can take the idea even further to get a very austere kind of system: throw away subtraction because it's just the opposite ("inverse") of addition. Also, even addition isn't the most fundamental kind of operation, because you can think of that as just repeatedly taking the next ("successor") number.



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28 Jul 2011, 4:43 pm

GreatSphinx wrote:
Basically, she did not want to know "that" it works, but "how" it works. She knows that (x + 2)(x + 2) is not the same as (x^2 + 2^2). She was just confusing herself as to why the rule worked the way it does. Using the order of operations for an example: She knows to use it and when it needs to be applied.

Order of operations is something that someone made up, and everyone uses. We could use a different convention on what order to do things if we liked, or we could just put parentheses around everything. Having an order of operations is like having parentheses, but without having to write down every set of parenthesis.

If we did addition first and exponentiation last, we could write (x+2)^2 as x+2^2
If we did parentheses around everything, we would have to write 1+2+3+4 as (1+(2+(3+4)))

In reverse polish notation, (x+2)^2 would be x 2 + 2 ^

We don't use roman numerals, so we don't use VIII for 8. We could, though, VIII is the same number as 8, just written differently.

There are some rules that are just about how we write it, and there are some rules that are based on a proof, which is how mathematicians show that something is always true. The only reason we're allowed to distribute with multiplication is because a mathematician made a proof that showed that a*(b+c) always equals a*b+a*c. That fact is true, even if we wrote it in a different way.


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28 Jul 2011, 4:52 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
You don't distribute addition either. 1+(2+3) = 1+2+3 not (1+2)+(1+3) (this could also be said as "addition is not distributive").

h.


Associative law. (1 + 2) + 3 = 1 + (2 + 3) = 1 + 2 + 3


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28 Jul 2011, 5:06 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
You don't distribute addition either. 1+(2+3) = 1+2+3 not (1+2)+(1+3) (this could also be said as "addition is not distributive").

h.


Associative law. (1 + 2) + 3 = 1 + (2 + 3) = 1 + 2 + 3


ruveyn

Maybe I should have put it like this:
1+(2*3) is not (1+2)*(1+3)


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28 Jul 2011, 5:21 pm

GreatSphinx wrote:
She now understands how it is that the rule is violated when you do that to a binomial. What I was trying to ask is if my explanation was already covered in some rule. You know, like why is it that the commutative and distributive properties work the way they do?

These are axioms. Commutativity of addition and multiplication, as well as the distributive law, are listed in the Peano axioms that define arithmetic. There is no further explanation or exposition possible; they are definitions and nothing further. The reason why (x+y)^2 does not equal x^2 + y^2 is trivial when you stop for a moment to work it out. (x+y)^2 is just a piece of notation that we use to mean (x+y)(x+y).

Quote:
Basically, she did not want to know "that" it works, but "how" it works. She knows that (x + 2)(x + 2) is not the same as (x^2 + 2^2).

Aside from a concrete counterexample to show that that is not the case, you can also show the general case- when you multiply out (x+y)^2=(x+y)(x+y)=x^2+y^2+2xy != x^2+y^2 for non-zero x, y. If that second step is questioned, break it down using the basic form of the distributive law twice:
(x+y)(x+y)
=x(x+y)+y(x+y)
=x^2+xy+yx+y^2
=x^2+2xy+y^2


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GreatSphinx
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28 Jul 2011, 10:26 pm

Again, I do thank you for your replies. :) They give me something to think abut. The only reason I keep pressing at this one point is because this is how my kid thinks. She has been this way since she could talk and started asking questions. She does not want examples and proofs. She wants the basic mechanics.

Let me explain what she wants another way. Let's relate a computer to a calculus problem. Imagine she saw a computer and wanted to know how it worked (maybe a limit problem would be a good example). I could tell her basically that the motherboard has cards, a processor and drives all hooked up to a mother board. )That would be like explaining the different parts of the equation to her by name.) I could further explain how each of these parts work. (Explaining what each individual part of the limit works (lim ... x --> 0 ... (x+0)/(x-2) ... etc)). This would still not satisfy her. She would want to see how they work together (solve the equation - this is where most of you have been leading her). She now sees how the HD is hooked up to the mother board and the different parts of the computer interact with each other, making the computer work. You could even show her that if you remove certain parts, the computer would not function properly. They are designed to work together. (just like each part of a limit problem works together, if you mix the orders up or take something away, the problem will not have the correct solution). Conversely, if you need the computer to do something it normally does not do, you have to add hardware or software (like if you have 0/0, you can still find the limit, but you need to use L'Hospital's R rule) Sometimes, if you remove a part, the computer will not function at all. If you take the CPU out, you may as well not have a computer. (likewise, if you remove the term 'Lim', you do not know what you are solving for. She would realize that the CPU is very important, but there would be more questions. How does it work. Way does it work. Why does it have different speeds depending on the chip? (This would be like asking about the specifics of the function.) She would finally just cut to the chase and ask exactly what the CPU does. In a nutshell, she wants to know that the computer is just calculating using sequences of ones and zeros. That's all a computer really is is computing ones and zeros, using a power source to make the circuitry work . (All mathematics is is addition (and subtraction, or undoing addition)). In the end, what she really wanted to know is how the computer uses a language called binary to run, and then I would explain what binary is, and how to use it. (or even more basic is that the circuits are open or closed, and that's how it works.

If you would talk to her about atoms, you would have to dive down deep into quantum mechanics. She HAS to know why things work the way they do. It is more than knowing when to use the rules, proofs and laws. It is looking deep into the basics of mathematics. Probably deeper than most people do. She is just lucky that I love numbers and have given this a lot of thought myself. My middle daughter does not enjoy math, so I tell her that math is like a game (or a puzzle - she likes these). You have to know all the rules to play the game correctly. Sometimes you can get lucky and not have to use the rule you are unfamiliar with, but if you need it and don't know it, you probably will not win the game

Quote:
what is the biggest whole number
There isn't one. It would be better to ask what is the largest number that we have calculated and named. Then again, numbers really don't exist (I know i am going to get a storm from this one), but even so, if numbers had an end, then we would not have the concept of infinity (another obsession of mine). I do see your point though. Just had to answer the question.

Quote:
On the idea of "Everything in math comes down to addition and subtraction", it's a good observation that multiplying is just repeated addition and powers are just repeated multiplications. You can take the idea even further to get a very austere kind of system: throw away subtraction because it's just the opposite ("inverse") of addition. Also, even addition isn't the most fundamental kind of operation, because you can think of that as just repeatedly taking the next ("successor") number.

You are still adding to get the next number, you add one to n (n+1). I suppose looking at that form, everything does come down to addition, even subtracting. That would just be in the form (n+(-1)). I like saying subtraction though, because it is reversing addition, just like division is reversing multiplication and roots are reversing powers.

I am assuming that from the responses, even if you do not think it is important, the little Mom's Law (or rule) hasn't actually been seen before.

On me, I am obsessed with math and science. I am pretty sure I will be getting a degree in the philosophy of science and religion with an emphasis on Physics and a minor in Math (then go on to get my Master's in Education so I can actually get a job with the bachelors degree). I love the ideas of the pre-beginning of the universe, infinity, chaos, sequences and permutations, and most other math. I think I could even get into the study of the Philosophy of Mathematics. :)


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