Why don't companies let people hack their gadgets?

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Asp-Z
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17 Nov 2010, 2:38 pm

I'm not talking about black hats getting into your banking info, I'm talking about things like jailbreaks and custom firmwares.

Tech companies seem to love starting cat and mouse chases which they'll never, and I mean never, win, with their own customers, for modding their own property to their liking, but I don't get why! Surely, if you've sold someone a phone, for example, you've got your money! Let them do what the hell with the firmware, it's their damn phone and they've paid you for it!

The Nexus One, and presumably the upcoming Nexus S, demonstrates what happens when companies let people at it, and the answer is... Get this... They have a more customisable product which customers can tweak to their liking! Surprisingly, customers like having their own tech set up the way they want - go figure!

So, why don't they all this? Why should you need to hack the bootloader? As far as I'm concerned, all the tech companies need to sell their gadgets with unlockable ones like the Nexus has. Users will like it and the companies have nothing to lose, they'll just get a more popular product out of it!



Eggman
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17 Nov 2010, 2:41 pm

my opinon is..you buy it, do what you want with it. Understanably you may void your warenty and have a non functiong product but hey for science!


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zer0netgain
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17 Nov 2010, 3:01 pm

Well, my thoughts....

I think companies have agendas for products. For example, you could use a Droid or iPhone for some serious stuff, but for the manufacturer to puts such software on the device, they would be liable if someone exploited the capability to do something illegal or just harmful to someone else. The "foreseeability" of such activity is why they lock down the device to pre-designed functions.

You modify the device, they are off the hook.

Now, as far as "jailbreaking" goes, I fail to understand why some devices are exclusives to certain network providers. AT&T seems to get first shot, and I hardly know anyone happy with AT&T coverage and reliability.

I suppose AT&T has certain abilities that allows the product manufacturer to make claims that would not hold true with all service providers, but to me, the exclusive service aspect limits sales to those who want the latest gadget NOW rather than wait until all service providers can sell it.



Asp-Z
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17 Nov 2010, 3:04 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
I think companies have agendas for products. For example, you could use a Droid or iPhone for some serious stuff, but for the manufacturer to puts such software on the device, they would be liable if someone exploited the capability to do something illegal or just harmful to someone else. The "foreseeability" of such activity is why they lock down the device to pre-designed functions.

You modify the device, they are off the hook.


I don't think that's it, or car companies would be liable for when people get run over, and besides, I don't see Google or HTC getting blamed for anything illegal done with the Nexus One.

Besides, some phones come with features which are illegal to use in some countries anyway. For example, my BlackBerry told me that the feature which logs all BBM messages could be illegal and that I should check before I turn it on.

Quote:
Now, as far as "jailbreaking" goes, I fail to understand why some devices are exclusives to certain network providers. AT&T seems to get first shot, and I hardly know anyone happy with AT&T coverage and reliability.

I suppose AT&T has certain abilities that allows the product manufacturer to make claims that would not hold true with all service providers, but to me, the exclusive service aspect limits sales to those who want the latest gadget NOW rather than wait until all service providers can sell it.


You seem to have jailbreaking confused with unlocking.



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17 Nov 2010, 3:24 pm

I know why Micro$oft and Apple do it with Windows (XP and up) and OSX respectively. Both OSes, per default, bar their users from installing custom themes or make it difficult (for example patching Windows' uxtheme.dll file). It's because they want you to look at that little windows or Apple icon and imprint it into your brain

Now, Apple sees themselves as those who produce really exclusive computers and gadgets. Take the iPhone for example, you cannot change anything beside the UI wallpaper. The rest looks the same on every iPhone, the same goes for the Xbox 360 UI and OSX's UI.

What if you're not happy with that UI, you'll most likely change the hell out of it to the point of that little windows/apple icon being gone, meaning they can't brainwash you into recognizing the icon whereever you go.

So in reality, unless you're running some command-line OS, an OS is really a commercial that does other neat things like... running your programs.

Going back to the iPhone again... Once you jailbreak that iPhone, Apple doesn't really have control over you anymore. You can buy programs from other places than the app store... when you buy stuff anywhere else than the app store... HOOOOO apple doesn't get any money in royalties. big crisis there....NOT

Another example is OSX itself. It says in the OSX EULA that you're not allowed to install OSX on a non-apple-labeled computer, which means you have to buy their overpriced piece of garbage they call computers.
In reality they have forgotten that they enclose stickers with some of their products (ie. iphone 4). Slap it on the case and legally install a version of OSX86 on your PC :D

now... /rant

In essence they write up a very long EULA, that nobody reads btw., where if you do anything the EULA says you can't do, they can legally hunt you down and use your scalp to stuff pillows. Let's say an iPhone X costs $399, you decide to hack the s**t out of it, removing every little apple icon you can find and replace them with... hmm cartoon icons. Now Apple can legally sue you for every last cent you got because you broke a legal document, their EULA.

So it's essentially their bloodthirst for money really, they can get, probably a hundred times the price of the iPhone X out of you thanks to a sh***y system.



Asp-Z
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17 Nov 2010, 3:30 pm

Foxx wrote:
In essence they write up a very long EULA, that nobody reads btw., where if you do anything the EULA says you can't do, they can legally hunt you down and use your scalp to stuff pillows. Let's say an iPhone X costs $399, you decide to hack the sh** out of it, removing every little apple icon you can find and replace them with... hmm cartoon icons. Now Apple can legally sue you for every last cent you got because you broke a legal document, their EULA.


While you mostly made good points there, I have to disagree with this.

An EULA has never been tested in court and no company will do it because it'd be very unlikely to stand up in a case.

If they were really out to sue the people who hacked their software, geohot would know about it now, don't you think? He made the first ever iPhone unlock, a bunch of jailbreaks, and he hacked the PS3. If this was a legal issue, he'd have been in court by now.

In fact, that's besides the point, because in the US at least, jailbreaking has specifically been declared legal by the government. Not that it wasn't in the first place, of course.



ZakFiend
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17 Nov 2010, 4:54 pm

Because they like rents and monopoly, also planned obsolescence.



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17 Nov 2010, 4:57 pm

Isn't it obvious why? They make shoddy products to begin with, and most people aren't tech-savvy enough to know how to spot the difference. The people that do know the difference have to void their warranty if they want to fiddle with it and make it better, or where it should be to begin with. Why punish people who know better? Simple. Profit. They aren't in business to help you or me, they are in business to make money, and you can't rip someone off for 300 bucks and simultaneously help them out. It's your money they want, not your satisfaction, and as far as that goes, not complaining to them means you are satisfied, or more specifically, not unsatisfied enough to do something about it.

All businesses operate the same way. Profit first, people second. Or, for the bigger companies, profit first, special interest groups second, and people third.



Asp-Z
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17 Nov 2010, 5:01 pm

Mindslave wrote:
Isn't it obvious why? They make shoddy products to begin with, and most people aren't tech-savvy enough to know how to spot the difference. The people that do know the difference have to void their warranty if they want to fiddle with it and make it better, or where it should be to begin with. Why punish people who know better? Simple. Profit. They aren't in business to help you or me, they are in business to make money, and you can't rip someone off for 300 bucks and simultaneously help them out. It's your money they want, not your satisfaction, and as far as that goes, not complaining to them means you are satisfied, or more specifically, not unsatisfied enough to do something about it.

All businesses operate the same way. Profit first, people second. Or, for the bigger companies, profit first, special interest groups second, and people third.


I'm aware of all this, but how does what the customer does after they've already bought the product effect profit? I don't think you explained that part.



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17 Nov 2010, 5:29 pm

Because then the product would be better. They don't want the product to be better, they are trying to make money. This is why increases in technology are gradual, in order to squeeze every last dollar out of every stage of development. The last thing they need is some punk kid who knows a thing or two about gadgets to mess up their profits. Over 50 years ago, the United States Electric Light Company gave Hiram Maxim a $20,000 annual life pension and banished him to England because he made so many improvements that their equipment became obsolete before they could pay for it. The average shelf life for electronics is about three months in Japan.

Ever notice how car companies make little, insignificant improvements every year for their new years model? They could do so much more, but then what about next year? If you have a 6 pack of 20 ounce bottles of root beer, you could drink it all in 3 days, but then you have to wait 4 days to go to the grocery store. Or you could ration it for the week. Same concept here, only it's a business.

Now you might say, "But why couldn't they just keep selling it regardless?" Because in a competition based society, you need to corner your market, and the last thing you need is someone else to start a rival business and cut into your profits.



Orwell
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17 Nov 2010, 8:02 pm

Because if they can keep you locked in and dependant they can squeeze you for more money later, either for upgrades or for the privilege of retaining access to content you have already purchased.

zer0netgain wrote:
but for the manufacturer to puts such software on the device, they would be liable if someone exploited the capability to do something illegal or just harmful to someone else. The "foreseeability" of such activity is why they lock down the device to pre-designed functions.

Completely false. There is not a single judge in the entire Western world who would ever uphold such an idiotic principle as blaming a manufacturer when someone uses their product in the commission of a crime. If there were, gunsmiths would have been driven out of business centuries ago. More recently (and in the tech area) we already have legal precedents via the BetaMax case that establishes that you can legally own (and thus have someone sell you) a piece of technology that would enable you to break the law.


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soulecho
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17 Nov 2010, 8:38 pm

I seem to remember reading an article not very long ago (a few months at maximum) that the SCOTUS ruled that once you buy a piece of equipment, it's yours to do with as you please (custom firmware, etc). I don't remember the details of the case, but I'm certain that I'm not imagining it.



Mark198423
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18 Nov 2010, 5:33 am

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious why. If you mess it up and the phone no-longer works, who would you take it to? The place of purchase, I know this as I work in one and see many people try to return products they're damaged themselves. If it was easy to make changes, more people would and therefore there would be more people messing it up.
If they make it a little more difficult, tell you it's not allowed and will invalidate your warrenty then people know what they're getting into.



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18 Nov 2010, 8:14 am

Mark198423 wrote:
I'd have thought it was pretty obvious why. If you mess it up and the phone no-longer works, who would you take it to? The place of purchase, I know this as I work in one and see many people try to return products they're damaged themselves. If it was easy to make changes, more people would and therefore there would be more people messing it up.
If they make it a little more difficult, tell you it's not allowed and will invalidate your warrenty then people know what they're getting into.

Not really an issue, since it's fairly simple just to retore the device to factory conditions. I've replaced the firmware on my iPod before, and all I have to do to revert it to the original condition is let iTunes look at it for a minute.


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Asp-Z
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20 Nov 2010, 3:27 am

JoeSchmukapop wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Mark198423 wrote:
I'd have thought it was pretty obvious why. If you mess it up and the phone no-longer works, who would you take it to? The place of purchase, I know this as I work in one and see many people try to return products they're damaged themselves. If it was easy to make changes, more people would and therefore there would be more people messing it up.
If they make it a little more difficult, tell you it's not allowed and will invalidate your warrenty then people know what they're getting into.

Not really an issue, since it's fairly simple just to retore the device to factory conditions. I've replaced the firmware on my iPod before, and all I have to do to revert it to the original condition is let iTunes look at it for a minute.

an average person wouldn't know how to do that.


It's easy to restore a firmware on an iDevice, and if you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be hacking your stuff in the first place.



zer0netgain
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20 Nov 2010, 8:35 pm

Orwell wrote:
Completely false. There is not a single judge in the entire Western world who would ever uphold such an idiotic principle as blaming a manufacturer when someone uses their product in the commission of a crime. If there were, gunsmiths would have been driven out of business centuries ago. More recently (and in the tech area) we already have legal precedents via the BetaMax case that establishes that you can legally own (and thus have someone sell you) a piece of technology that would enable you to break the law.


Um, judges don't always decide cases, juries do, and they have awarded judgments so idiotic that you have all the "legal boilerplate" on stuff now in an attempt by the manufacturer to cover legal exposure.

More so, last I checked, there have been many attempts to hold gun manufacturers responsible for deaths caused by their products. It never gets to trial, but you can bet there have been efforts to sue them over it.

Remember, just defending against a frivolous lawsuit costs a lot of money....even if you are not found liable.