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Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 4:32 pm

see what I mean, about every sentence this guy speaks has an insult attached. And it didn't start here, it started in PPR, something about SJW's. This guy doesn't know how to state anything without attaching an insult.

And just like I said AspE, being all scientists don't agree on the subject, doesn't make 'Talking simply scientific' to applicable. I offered logical complications that come with this mislabeling gender, you choose to shy away from them and use insults. Like for example, when someone claims I'm a male, you used to know what that meant. Now days, you are still in the dark by what they mean and have to ask specifically, what is your biological sex and what do you identify as? I'm a women or I'm a man is forever lost until, it means nothing because it's not clear if they are speaking about their biological sex or their 'identity'. When you walk down the street, what's up 'man' can lead to, I'm so offended, I identify as a female.

Saying all scientists do not agree is a very big argument, there are 'countries' that don't agree.
so I guess the lop sided rules are Ok as long as you agree with AspE. He just called me Cinderella, as if that isn't specifically aimed at me as an insult. Having a PHD doesn't mean you have a PHD in Biology, which actually makes all the difference in the world.



Last edited by Crimadella on 29 Jan 2019, 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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29 Jan 2019, 4:36 pm

AspE wrote:
I don't agree to disagree, this is not a matter of opinion. Cindarella is free to counter my scientific argument with a counter argument based on science, but just saying that other scientists disagree is not an argument.
Good point.

I have to take the "one amateur opinion is as good as another" stance because I only have an MSEE degree, and not a PhD.



Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 4:44 pm

Either way, it's like the typical SJW tactic going on here, only the ones in agreement with each other are allowed to speak, if I try then it's 'not letting others have their own opinion'. AspE, if you do not have a PHD in biology, then all you have is an opinion(sound familiar, it's what I was told). In fact, even if you did, all you have is an opinion because all the correct 'authorities' do not agree on the matter. There is no point for me to talk, i'll be attacked for having a difference in opinion.



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29 Jan 2019, 4:48 pm

No one is preventing you from speaking (actually, posting). I'm just saying that no one opinion expressed by a non-professional in a relevant field is as good as any other expressed by a non-professional in a relevant field.

Are you more interested in discussing the topic or in complaining about people who disagree with your opinions?



Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 4:56 pm

That's kinda the point. He's 'opinion' trumps mine by default of you agreeing with him. If i counter his insult I may be held accountable, I choose to not discuss with childish people. A point can be given without insult ya know. It only seems to be an important matter when I do it. Also, I made points, I did very little complaining. If my opinion differs, it's complaining, that's the message I have gathered from all of this.



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29 Jan 2019, 5:02 pm

Crimadella wrote:
... He's 'opinion' trumps mine by default of you agreeing with him...
Is that the problem? That more people agree with the opposing viewpoint than agree with yours?

This isn't a contest; it isn't about "likes" or votes to see whose viewpoint will be declared the winning one. If you can provide valid citations that prove your viewpoint to be The Absolute Truth, then I would be a fool to stubbornly insist on not changing my mind. I am not one to say, "I don't care what you believe; I have made up my mind, so don't confuse me with facts".



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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29 Jan 2019, 5:06 pm

Crimadella wrote:
That's kinda the point. He's 'opinion' trumps mine by default of you agreeing with him. If i counter his insult I may be held accountable, I choose to not discuss with childish people. A point can be given without insult ya know. It only seems to be an important matter when I do it. Also, I made points, I did very little complaining. If my opinion differs, it's complaining, that's the message I have gathered from all of this.


Is it possible that other people agree with AspE's argument because it is a better argument supported by more evidence than the argument you presented which has no evidence other than your personal opinion? When you just say you disagree but don't provide evidence of why you disagree other than your own opinion, doesn't it make sense that people are going to agree with the argument backed by better, or just any, evidence rather than an opinion with no supporting evidence?

Your opinion was "trumped" by a better argument. That's what you should have gathered from this discussion.



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29 Jan 2019, 5:16 pm

I really don't have to ask about a person's biology during platonic encounters. Their identity is quite enough, and if it's non-binary, that's fine too. Crimedella's objections seem to be personal ones having to do with changing culture which is becoming more inclusive of gender differences, just like it's becoming more inclusive about racial and autism spectrum differences.



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29 Jan 2019, 5:41 pm

Meh ... gender-schmender ... as long as we all get along ...



Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 6:06 pm

The objection is people not understanding the complications that clearly arise from woman and man no longer having any meaning. This matters in 'womens rights', medically treating patients. The doctor has to ask, what is you biological sex, have you been converted. Symptoms matter when diagnosing biological females and biological males. The same symptoms may point a completely different diagnosis, and it's further complicated by, did this person convert to the opposite sex. Meaning, I'm looking at the symptoms, this appears to be a biological male, but if I'm wrong about that, the diagnosis could be completely different. "i've heard people say in interviews that these complications are occurring. Sometimes a doctor may have nothing but a piece a paper , symptoms and the person may incorrectly be diagnosed because they incorrectly marked their 'sex' as their gender. It's the complication that matters. What are womens rights? well, that depends, what do you mean by 'women'? What is women's sports? what is this woman's diagnosis?

My objection is it uses the exact same identifiers 'male and female', woman and man' as sex, so it's always a question of, are they telling me their gender or their biological sex. It doesn't matter though, maybe if enough people die due to misdiagnosis, or men start taking over women's sports or any other complications that may arise, maybe then they will understand how they made a huge mistake in this whole fluid gender movement. Apparently that's the way it's going to move, hopefully people will be intelligent enough to give the right answers when the question is asked, what sex are you?

I pointed this out in another argument, it's just the same as the mass in misunderstanding of the words 'truth' & 'fact'. You average person constantly misuses these words and aren't aware of the differences. A 'truth' can be believed, a 'fact' never changes and can be confirmed. So I predict mass confusion in 'sex' and 'gender' leading to lives lost and rules being broken. Their are already incidents occurring due to the mass confusion. Anyway, I'm sure all my arguments and worries don't matter to any of you, all I can say is watch the complications unfold by using sex identifiers to represent personal taste.



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29 Jan 2019, 6:55 pm

I did mention that biological sex has some limited and useful functions. No one has an issue with a doctor asking about your known biology. Again, your objection isn't scientific, but cultural. It's no big deal to have an extra space on your medical form that mentions gender as well as biological sex. Just like you can write your legal name as well as what you actually like to be called. But in this case, gender can be the result of very real biological differences between external observation and internal realities.



Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 7:52 pm

AspE wrote:
I did mention that biological sex has some limited and useful functions. No one has an issue with a doctor asking about your known biology. Again, your objection isn't scientific, but cultural. It's no big deal to have an extra space on your medical form that mentions gender as well as biological sex. Just like you can write your legal name as well as what you actually like to be called. But in this case, gender can be the result of very real biological differences between external observation and internal realities.


The reasons I mention these complication is because everyone of them are already occurring. Previously you mentioned me being paranoid assuming bad faith in humanity, it's not paranoia when it actually occurs. To me, it's like saying murder shouldn't be illegal because we must assume good faith in humanity. There has already been misdiagnosis due to this issue, there has already been biological men entering biological women's sports and dominating and setting women's records. As someone pointed out in this thread, there has already been biological men taking over in women's rights movements. A biological man has already been named 'woman' of the year in a magazine. It's kind of odd because the activist groups who started the gender movement are the ones who will suffer most to to mass confusion of sex and gender.

Bone density, aggression, athletic capabilities and possible more vary greatly between bio males and bio females. I watched something previously where twins were born, one of them had complications so they attempted to convert 'him' into a 'her'. Everything was all good until puberty then complications arose. 'She' naturally began doing more and more manly activities, she became very depressed and confused about who she was. The mom eventually told them the story, the other twin became very depressed and overdosed. The converted twin tried to convert back to male, got married and eventually committed suicide.

I don't mention much on the science because there isn't much to mention. All the science bit is about is basically a lot of bio males and bio females have a lot in common. Equally they have a lot of differences. All the science does is show that humans have a lot in common with humans. It list out several factors to include in determining gender but offers not concrete determination, ultimately it's up to the individual, I just don't get it. Why study the factors when it really just comes down to the person choosing...that makes the factors obsolete.

These complications aren't a figment of my imagination, it would be nice if you could just realize that they do indeed exist. It's a man-made identity crisis, where I guarantee you many complications will arise as they are already happening, all so a person can misrepresent them selves using a term that used to clearly state their biological sex. It seems like very little reward for the complications that will come with it.

Just because the form says 'sex' doesn't mean the person will understand, maybe if it says 'biological sex' then 'gender', something tells me many people will still get it confused maybe even reversed. I'm 36, I just recently found out there is a difference. I'm not an idiot, i'm willing to bet your average person has no clue, just as the average person has no clue there is a difference with the words truth and fact.

If you think there is something about the science bit I'm missing, please explain so without insulting me. I should be allowed to express concern for legitimate complications that are already at play.



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29 Jan 2019, 9:42 pm

If the science says that gender is the result of a complex interaction between hormones, brain structure, genetic expression, epigenetics, and genital anatomy, then the choice I mentioned isn't really a choice, it's a personal assessment of how all these internal and external qualities add up. This isn't a new thing, only the realization that it exists in such a fashion is new to science. So all these complications to medical science have already been happening. And yes, determination of gender by well-meaning parents and doctors can lead to problems too. That and prejudice can increase risk of suicide.

As much as gender ambiguity affects sports, know that it has also caused some biological women to be excluded from events when they produce "too much" testosterone. So it works both ways.



Crimadella
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29 Jan 2019, 11:56 pm

I understand that, I've heard those examples being used, or read, hard to tell I've been on it so hard. Like chromosome differences XXY XYY and others.

I just figured out the twist that has occurred that is causing mass confusion, funny thing is it really doesn't have much at all to do with gender science. If you change things back the way they were...Gender identifiers were masculine and feminine while sex identifiers are male and female. Without researching all this stuff to see through the confusion, if someone told me they were a 'masculine female' or a 'feminine male' there is no confusion at all and I would imagine that was purposely done to prevent confusion or simply because gender and sex are two different things. Who decided to change gender identifiers to 'male' and 'female' and why? It seems to purposely cause confusion so someone can say they are a male or female when their biological sex is the opposite. Like disguising their true biological sex by altering gender terminology. Help me out, why was this done, what purpose did it serve and wouldn't one assume this would cause mass confusion?



Crimadella
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30 Jan 2019, 5:30 am

AspE wrote:
If the science says that gender is the result of a complex interaction between hormones, brain structure, genetic expression, epigenetics, and genital anatomy, then the choice I mentioned isn't really a choice, it's a personal assessment of how all these internal and external qualities add up. This isn't a new thing, only the realization that it exists in such a fashion is new to science. So all these complications to medical science have already been happening. And yes, determination of gender by well-meaning parents and doctors can lead to problems too. That and prejudice can increase risk of suicide.

As much as gender ambiguity affects sports, know that it has also caused some biological women to be excluded from events when they produce "too much" testosterone. So it works both ways.


The problem only seems to get escalated by changing gender identifies to match something completely different, biological sex. It's well known that abnormalities exist in nearly everything. Take women's sports, as you pointed out, some bio women aren't able to play women's sports, but this occasion is quite rare, it attempts to address the situations by knocking the door down completely to allow any bio man to play in women's sports. Back to the original point, it causes way more issues than it resolves by creating a conduction where gender and biological sex can be confused, making the uneducated on the matter easily confused and misunderstanding sex and gender to an even larger degree. So many unnecessary complications are created for no real benefit other than to intentionally deceive by masking gender as biological sex, two completely different components.