Gone With the Wind

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Oh okay, I just thought that HBO and Netflix were severely over-reacting because I don't think people are going to cancel their suscriptions just because of the content of just one movie.

As for movies that maybe offensive, hmm... Well one movie I like is In Cold Blood (1967), but one could say the movie is sympathetic because it gives a sympathetic portrayal of two murderers. But isn't that considerably more offensive than Gone with the Wind, in the sense, that even though Scarlet O'Hara is a slave owner, she is not a murderer? And yet the two killers in In Cold Blood, or portrayed more sympathetically than she is.

Or what about Godzilla (1954), that I mentioned before? Or I would also say that A Clockwork Orange is in a worst taste than GWIW but you don't see HBO or Netflix refusing to that show that movie because of offensive content.

I am a little limited on both Godzilla (1954) and A Clockwork Orange, so maybe you can help me. Would those movies have something equivalent to how people might see that GWTW might make people think they can be happy as slaves? Like I have heard of A Clockwork Orange is about house invaders that might possibly rape, do you think people might walk away form the movie saying that those things are okay, like people are happy having their homes invaded?

And my awareness of Godzilla is as a representation of nuclear power, the original movie specifically being about the atom bombs that were used against Japan in WWII. Were there maybe elements in that movie that implied that the bombs that killed a lot of innocent civilians were a good thing, or maybe even try to defend the sort of acts the Japanese government were doing that led them to being the targets of the bombs?

Personally as an anime fan I have been critical of the Kantai Collection franchise, because I think that it romanticizes Japanese imperialism from WWII, because it represents the ships used during that time period as cute and quirky anime girls, fighting against a soulless hoard in battles that resemble those that Japan had and instigated. I am familiar that there are some Japanese people that want to pretend that there was nothing wrong with what they did, and try to ignore the atrocities that were committed.

There are arguments that I am a hypocrite though, a particular series I am very fond of is called Saga of Tanya the Evil, the setting is around a character set in an alternate world very much resembling a mix of the first and second war, with the protagonist and supposed good guys on the side that very much resembles Germany. The series gives these good guys very much iconography that resembles Nazi attire, equipment, and fascistic desire for the glory of the Fatherland. The main character of the series even matches up to her title as being seen as particularly evil that those on her side are afraid of her, commits some atrocities that are just not written into law, but also comes across as one of the most level headed, and maybe actually make things better. The argument really is there that you could accuse that it romanticizes the likes of Nazis, but my argument is that there are key differences, such as the lack of any racial supremacy, and I think that has some really interesting points. And also very fun.

Oh okay. I haven't seen those ones you mentioned.

Well for A Clockwork Orange, I just simply thought people would find the rape material offensive, if they are going to get offended by GWTW. I think the reason why if I had to pick which was more offensive between GWTW and A Clockwork Orange, I would say A Clockwork Orange, because GWTW has a much better story to tell in my opinion, and the better the story, the more you can rise above offensive material if that makes sense? I guess it's hard to explain.

For Godzilla, I felt that using a giant lizard monster as an WWII bombing allegory was offensive in the sense that it was just poor taste. It would be like making a monster movie today, where a monster attacks the U.S. but they try to shoehorn all these 9/11 themes, and making the monster a 9/11 related monster, if that makes sense? It would just come off as in poor taste and offensive.

So that is how I saw Godzilla, but thought that that type of poor taste is more offensive than GWTW, because GWTW had a much better story to tell. But I guess people don't care about quality of story maybe, when it comes to material they may deem offensive?

You know? I've actually known a couple of older black women who liked Gone With the Wind. I even met a black woman at a flea market in North Georgia who was selling Mammy and Scarlett knick knacks. So I have to wonder if in reality some black people aren't really as offended by this movie as some white people are? Now that I think about it the people I know who get so offended by this movie are actually white.

Just food for thought...

I've noticed this too with some things. I remember an interview with Robert Downey Jr. where he talked about how a lot of people were offended by him playing a black face type character in Tropic Thunder. But he said that most people who were offended were white, where as most black people loved him he said and thought he was funny in the role. So I guess it depends on the people?

The differences lay in the fact that as far as I know A Clockwork Orange is not being sympathetic to performing rape, not to the same extent that GWTW could be accused of romanticizing being complacent with being a slave. It is not having a topic that makes it offensive, it is portraying it in a way that could leave bad lessons to the audience that might think people would be happier as property. This is along the lines of what people can believe today, where you have people that claim that women would be happier if they were just property to their husbands rather maybe being the career breadwinners themselves.

And you really think that there are not movie monsters that do not represent or are related to 9/11? Off the top of my head is Cloverfield, and I have seen analysis that some of the post 9/11 zombie movies made afterwards could have some representation. I know some connections have been made to the likes of the Batman Begins and maybe The Dark Knight were representations of the anxieties and stuff after 9/11. You see shifts in a lot of movies afterwards, relating to 9/11 and the following war. It is not offensive for Godzilla to simply represent the atom bombs that devastated Japan, a lot of movie monsters are similar allegories.

Frankly I think what African Americans REALLY care about is the right to not be beaten up, murdered, or unfairly arrested by the police. NOT censoring some silly old movie.

Oh okay. I didn't see GWTW but I can watch it again and see. But let's say the slaves in GWTW were to reliant on being slaves instead of wanting to build lives for themselves. Wouldn't it have been really tough for the black people to get jobs and advance, after being freed from slavery, so they are scared of venturing out into the world possibly?

For example, in the movie The Shawshank Redemption, the prisoners are afraid to leave prison because they think that if they do, life will be a lot harder for them. So they are afraid to not be a prisoner anymore. Wouldn't the slaves in GWTW have a similar type of fear, of being freed and on their own, or no?

I never thought of Cloverfield as a 9/11 allegory. Neither are the Batman movies, since I think the tone of the movies are similar to the comics which came out before 9/11. I think the reason why Godzilla comes off in poor taste to me is the very inclusion of radiation in the plot, for a monster movie. I think in order for Batman Begins or The Dark Knight to have the same type of allegory, they would have to include something much more similar to 9/11. Like if the villains decided to take over passenger jet planes and were going to crash them into Gotham skyscrapers, then I would consider that on the same level as Godzilla. But I do not see the Batman movies or Cloverfield having any 9/11 similarities really.

Tropic Thunder is open to discussion, but I personally think people think that blackface in the movie is as bad as any other example are kind of missing the point of some things. The characters in Tropic Thunder are all kind of parodies actors, trying to portray them all as disconnected and don't know what they are doing. I think it helps that Robert Downey Jr. never came across as mocking of black people, rather than mocking of the idea that some actor might think that it is a good idea to essentially wear blackface, especially for an entire role.

Tropic Thunder is a joke about the idea that we could treat celebrities such as actors like heroes. The movie also has Ben Stiller putting on an act of an offensive stereotype of a mentally disabled man, kind of like Forest Gump, that you could accuse of it as ablest since clearly people find it more funny than empathetic.

I think some of the other fake movies in Tropic Thunder were also examples of mocking overweight people, and I think one that was exploitive of homosexuality and religion. Granted, I don't think right now they would do what they did in Tropic Thunder, since it has been made very clear that no blackface should be done if at all possible.

Oh okay. Robert Downey Jr. also said in the interview, that even though people were offended at him in the role, that White Chicks came out before that movie, and people were okay with that, so he thought it was a double standard, if he had a point?

The impression I had was that the African American community overwhelmingly supported the parody in tropic thunder and the humour in Robert Downey Jr's black face character. But I agree its a slippery slope and would be rare to see such films ever again.

Al Jolson would be rolling in his grave

Again, Robert Downey is not pretending to be a black person, he is pretending to be a person pretending to be a black person. I think that distinction is relevant, but I won't force people if they are out there that feel different.

Yeah I saw him interviewed on Joe Rogan's podcast and the Tropic thunder script was so unique it just doesn't lend itself to be repeated again.

Of course there will always be those who find something to complain even in that type of parody as the image of "blackface" is enough to trigger.

I was talking to a friend about Tropic Thunder and she says you see this this all the time and people do not get offended like though, like how in Tootsie, you have a man pretending to be a woman, or how in Sister Act, you have a not so religious person, pretending to be a nun.

But would those movies have trouble getting made nowadays to?

I remember back in catholic school we were all forced to watch Tootsie (starring Dustin Hoffman). At the time I was a little squeemish as my brain hadn't properly processed the concept of cross dressing.

My daughter watched a BBC movie "Billionaire Boy" where one of the characters was a cross-dresser who wore female make-up and was decidely male. She also watched Mr Brown's Boys, She seemed to be much more tolerant of cross dressing than I ever was as she just thinks some people do this because they want to.

Oh okay. I didn't seen Tootsie till later on in life. One movie I saw as a kid was Mrs. Doubtfire. I never thought of it was squeemish really, the Dad just wanted to find a way to secretly see his kids, so I guess it made sense to me in that way, at a young age.