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Nist498
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27 Dec 2015, 6:11 pm

Just got back from watching and to sum it up: it sucked. I know that a lot of people hated the prequels yet for me the prequels still felt like Star Wars films while this one did not and I blame it mostly on the writer and on Abrams. I'm going to look at the bad first so I can end on a positive note.

First, the dialogue: It's the usual Diablo Cody BS that we're seeing in movies these days and it causes the film to stand apart from the rest of the franchise. Yes, the dialogue in the old movies was stilted and corny but that was part of their charm and fit with the whole "old serial" schtick that was integral to both of the old trilogies. You have characters cracking funnies at ridiculous times and this in turn makes much of the comedy feel forced. I literally slapped my forehead at how bad it was several times during the film. The overuse of technical jargon made it feel more Star Trek than Star Wars.

Second, the plot: It's clear the writer wanted to ape episode IV and did so in the most lackluster way possible. It was practically a paint by numbers sequel/remake plot and it shows. The painful nods to previous movies, the unoriginal super weapon with a stupid name (I'm sorry, but World Destroyer and Sun Crusher fit with Star Wars, the gobbledy gook they came up with here was silly), and foreshadowing that was about as subtle as Donald Trump all speak to the poor job done with the plot. The Finn vs Stormtrooper fight is a particular call out in it's silliness and again screams Star Trek rather than Star Wars coming off as a fight from one of those movies rather than something that would fit with the original trilogy or even the prequels.

Third, the cinematography: This is clearly an Abrams film. The use of particular shots (especially one at the end) and the lens flares (though toned down) are his style through and through. Again it just doesn't feel like Star Wars.

Fourth, most of the characters: This film is a film of wannabes. We basically have wannabe Luke/Han/Leia, wannabe Wedge, wannabe Vader, and wannabe Palpatine. Rey is basically a Force Mary Sue picking up things out of the blue for no real reason, Kylo Ren comes across as ridiculous with his whole "I feel the pull towards the light" one minute and his insane tantrums the next, and Poe is just there.

Finally, the fight at the end: Ren comes off as incompetent for a Dark Sider in terms of lightsaber fighting. Yes, he was injured but this is still a guy that supposedly wiped out his contemporaries in lightsaber duels and yet he fights like some kind of simple minded brute, That Finn is able to hold him off for any length of time is bad enough, that Rey Mary Sues him in the fight is just laughable.

This post is getting long so I'll cover the good in a second one.


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Aspie202
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27 Dec 2015, 6:13 pm

What really shocked me is that Kylo Ren killed his own father, almost like the lion king. Except scar killed his brother.


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Nist498
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27 Dec 2015, 6:32 pm

Ok, onto the good:

Kylo Ren actually does use his cross guard well in one scene and while his skill level sucks, the overall movements actually fit with the type of weapon he was using.

Finn is arguably one of the most interesting characters to come out of Star Wars in a long time. There is nuance in his character and while he comes across a bit corny at the start, I felt that they did a decent job with him overall along with setting up the potential for him to grow in the sequels.

Han and Leia still have their old chemistry and it was wonderful to see and the scene with Luke at the end was very well done for the most part.

The "Force Vision" Rey has was also well done though I would have loved to actually see Darth Vader in it instead of just hearing his breathing.

Snoke's look and the way he acts suggests he may be Darth Plagueis which I greatly approve of.

The dog fighting choreography was in general very well done and one of the fews things that actually felt like Star Wars.

Finally, the technology. It actually feels as though advancements have been made in the Star Wars universe and said advancements actually make sense. Whether it's the armament on the new Star Destroyer to the turrets on the new TIE Fighters that let them shoot enemies at their back it helps to give the sense that time has passed in a believable manner.

So all that said here's my overall score:

Plot 4/10: Clearly a remake inspired script that does little to make itself unique. Massive plot holes and contrived plot elements abound.

Music and Sound 6/10: While John Williams composed the score the new pieces feel out of place in the Star Wars universe. Same thing with some of the sounds of blasters and such.

Characters 2/10: Finn and the originals are the only good thing here. It's a shame too because Kylo Ren could have been something. The feminism angle also cripples this pretty bad though acknowledging that there are females in the First Order is a good thing.

Choreography 6/10: Clumsy at times and yet brilliant at others it's a mixed bag, but overall more than watchable.

Cinematography 8/10: While I did complain that Abram's style doesn't fit with Star Wars it is still done with his signature quality and I can't fault him for that.

Dialogue 4/10: Doesn't fit well and comes across as extremely forced at times. It's a pity too because there are scenes (Like the Rey interrogation scene) where it's actually quite good. Overall though it's a negative.

Special Effects 8/10: They really put the effort into this and it shows. From the explosions to ships it's quite breathtaking.


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28 Dec 2015, 3:19 am

I would say I enjoyed it - on a fun medium level. It was all it was supposed to be. I started the cinema clapping when the Millennium Falcon appeared that got the atmosphere going. I cried when Han got killed, I don't recall crying in any of the others. I enjoyed the two new leads - agree with the confusing new rise of the dark force and the new comers being a little too skilled too quickly. But quite fun overall. The thing I missed was the 20th Century Fox music at the beginning - didn't seem like Star Wars without that!


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886
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28 Dec 2015, 9:35 am

enz wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
It also requires substantial suspension of disbelief to accept that Kylo Ren - potentially immensely strong in the force due to his heritage - wouldn't just completely wipe the floor with Finn in 1-to-1 combat. But he can barely hold his own against a janitor. And it seems like they added his pre-combat injuries as a crude afterthought after they realized how implausible the duel would be


(Devils advocate) Kylo Ren was shot in the leg by Chewbacca and wasn't feeling it


It's not as if star wars is known for obeying the laws of physics and bodily injury, Rey was slammed using the force against a tree, falling about 20 feet and she just kind of shook it off..


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enz
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28 Dec 2015, 6:36 pm

886 wrote:
enz wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
It also requires substantial suspension of disbelief to accept that Kylo Ren - potentially immensely strong in the force due to his heritage - wouldn't just completely wipe the floor with Finn in 1-to-1 combat. But he can barely hold his own against a janitor. And it seems like they added his pre-combat injuries as a crude afterthought after they realized how implausible the duel would be


(Devils advocate) Kylo Ren was shot in the leg by Chewbacca and wasn't feeling it


It's not as if star wars is known for obeying the laws of physics and bodily injury, Rey was slammed using the force against a tree, falling about 20 feet and she just kind of shook it off..


Perhaps it was a plot device to show Finn and rey were badasses and Kylo Ten will be a badass when he "finishes his training" with snoke



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28 Dec 2015, 8:19 pm

enz wrote:
886 wrote:
enz wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
It also requires substantial suspension of disbelief to accept that Kylo Ren - potentially immensely strong in the force due to his heritage - wouldn't just completely wipe the floor with Finn in 1-to-1 combat. But he can barely hold his own against a janitor. And it seems like they added his pre-combat injuries as a crude afterthought after they realized how implausible the duel would be


(Devils advocate) Kylo Ren was shot in the leg by Chewbacca and wasn't feeling it


It's not as if star wars is known for obeying the laws of physics and bodily injury, Rey was slammed using the force against a tree, falling about 20 feet and she just kind of shook it off..


Perhaps it was a plot device to show Finn and rey were badasses and Kylo Ten will be a badass when he "finishes his training" with snoke


I don't buy it. Considering what other Force users have been able to shrug off and keep fighting effectively in past and the fact that Ren was still able to keep fighting and didn't appear all that put out by his injury I have to conclude that either Kylo Ren is a rank amateur in lightsaber combat or this was a complete miss by the writer failing to understand how powerful Force users are.


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enz
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28 Dec 2015, 8:44 pm

taking a bullet or a ray gun is going to knock some fight out of you. He was in pain he hit himself in the side three or four times

I can't remember, what damage did other force users fight through?



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28 Dec 2015, 9:20 pm

I've just realised that with the exceptions of the Geonosis arena scene and the order 66 scene, I think this is actually the first time we have seen a force-user get hit by a blaster. Also, it was well established in TFA that Chewie's bowcaster is more powerful than a standard blaster.

I am assuming that future instalments will provide an explanation as to how OP Rey is.


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29 Dec 2015, 9:35 pm

Saw it this past saturday. It didn't exactly blow my hair back.


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29 Dec 2015, 10:01 pm

I enjoyed it. A bit predictable (No way that superweapon's going to fire, and no way Han's getting off that bridge alive) and the story feels like a rehash of Episode IV, but it was all pretty fun. Also, the action sequences are a joy to watch and the characters have fantastic onscreen chemistry. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.

The main weak point IMO was the story. It's a little bare-bones and doesn't do enough to distinguish itself. Then again, the story in the prequels was a bit of a trainwreck at times. Even Ep. V had some weirdness and that's widely regarded as the best in the series.


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30 Dec 2015, 2:53 am

enz wrote:
taking a bullet or a ray gun is going to knock some fight out of you. He was in pain he hit himself in the side three or four times

I can't remember, what damage did other force users fight through?

Darth Maul survived being cut in half by Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is actually canon now.

Oh, and Vader, of course... But he was incapacitated after Obi-Wan cut off several of his limbs and had to live the rest of his life in a life-support suit.

Furthermore, in the Expanded universe content (which is not canon, though), there are several force users who pull off amazing feats of resilience, like surviving decapitation or just good old fashioned immortality.



enz
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30 Dec 2015, 3:10 am

GGPViper wrote:
enz wrote:
taking a bullet or a ray gun is going to knock some fight out of you. He was in pain he hit himself in the side three or four times

I can't remember, what damage did other force users fight through?

Darth Maul survived being cut in half by Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is actually canon now.

Oh, and Vader, of course... But he was incapacitated after Obi-Wan cut off several of his limbs and had to live the rest of his life in a life-support suit.

Furthermore, in the Expanded universe content (which is not canon, though), there are several force users who pull off amazing feats of resilience, like surviving decapitation or just good old fashioned immortality.


That's fine but they didn't keep fighting until there injuries were taken care of.

I said kylo ren was temporarily weakened by the blaster giving Rey and Finn a fighting chance



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30 Dec 2015, 5:09 pm

enz wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
enz wrote:
taking a bullet or a ray gun is going to knock some fight out of you. He was in pain he hit himself in the side three or four times

I can't remember, what damage did other force users fight through?

Darth Maul survived being cut in half by Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is actually canon now.

Oh, and Vader, of course... But he was incapacitated after Obi-Wan cut off several of his limbs and had to live the rest of his life in a life-support suit.

Furthermore, in the Expanded universe content (which is not canon, though), there are several force users who pull off amazing feats of resilience, like surviving decapitation or just good old fashioned immortality.


That's fine but they didn't keep fighting until there injuries were taken care of.

I said kylo ren was temporarily weakened by the blaster giving Rey and Finn a fighting chance


That was my perception of why Kylo Ren lost the light saber duel.


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31 Dec 2015, 12:10 am

I didn't like it. As expected, it was pure rehash, bereft of anything interesting or innovative aside from Ben Solo's character. Now, if Martin Scorcese had made his Endymion, THAT might have been a picture that added something substantial to the Space Opera genre. Instead of Auteurs like Scorcese, and Coppola with his unfilmed Magapolis dream project, we're going to get a century of Star Wars movies made by passionless hacks like Abrams. And, without any input from the one guy (Lucas) who might have made them into something more interesting.

My anticipation of these movies was piqued when I read that post over at Reddit, which built a convincing case that George Lucas originally intended Jar Jar to be revealed to be a Sith lord, until the fanboy reaction convinced him to drop the idea. There is a LOT of foreshadowing of this revelation in the first movie. I had some hope that JJ would be an antagonist in the new films, but now I know that will never happen. TFA indicates a reluctance to do anything risky or innovative.



Last edited by Nebogipfel on 31 Dec 2015, 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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31 Dec 2015, 12:19 am

Nebogipfel wrote:
I didn't like it. As expected, it was pure rehash, bereft of anything interesting or innovative aside from Ben Solo's character. Now, if Martin Scorcese had made his Endymion, THAT might have been a picture that added something substantial to the Space Opera genre. Instead of Auteurs like Scorcese, and Coppola with his unfilmed Magapolis dream project, we're going to get a century of Star Wars movies made by passionless hacks like Abrams. And, without any input from the one guy (Lucas) who might have made them into something interesting.


Given how Lucas did with his last three attempts I'd call this an upgrade and won't look a gift horse in the mouth.


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