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Gone With the Wind

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Bradleigh
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22 Aug 2020, 12:21 am

I hope that we can all agree here that crossdressing is not in itself offensive.


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ironpony
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22 Aug 2020, 1:20 am

Oh well I guess the point I was making is that in a movie, if a character has a motive to disguise themselves to trick people whether or not it's disguising themselves as a different race or gender, than I don't think that in it's self is offensive.

I watched the movie You Only Live Twice with two friends and they made comments about how it was racist that Bond disguises himself as a Japanese man But Bond is only doing this to not be noticed by the villains and he is working undercover. So I didn't think it was racist since it's part of the mission.

Plus in the world of espionage, it's not you can afford to be politically correct, I figure. But is it offensive for Bond to do that, if the motive is to not be noticed by the villains?



cyberdad
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22 Aug 2020, 2:33 am

Bradleigh wrote:
I hope that we can all agree here that crossdressing is not in itself offensive.


Well not really, I think the point was there was a spate of cross dressing movies and now "poof" nothing.

BTW people who cross-dress are not always angels. I worked with a gentleman who cross dressed like Klinger in MASH who was a real A-hole who ingratiated himself with management and dobbed on fellow staff members (got a few of us in trouble) but then got the sack when he was caught defrauding overtime claiming extra when he was doing private work after hours in the office.



Bradleigh
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22 Aug 2020, 4:10 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh well I guess the point I was making is that in a movie, if a character has a motive to disguise themselves to trick people whether or not it's disguising themselves as a different race or gender, than I don't think that in it's self is offensive.

I watched the movie You Only Live Twice with two friends and they made comments about how it was racist that Bond disguises himself as a Japanese man But Bond is only doing this to not be noticed by the villains and he is working undercover. So I didn't think it was racist since it's part of the mission.

Plus in the world of espionage, it's not you can afford to be politically correct, I figure. But is it offensive for Bond to do that, if the motive is to not be noticed by the villains?


What is offensive is not just pretending to be another race, the offense comes from a historic dressing up of people of other races for mocking purposes. I won't even claim that the example in the Bond movie is offensive, I have not seen the movie. But there has been a historic trope in movies where white people have done things like dressed up and worn makeup to look Asian, perhaps with things like buck teeth and other elements of mocking.

And it is a movie, a movie can make the decision whether a character has alter their skin colour to look like another race, it is not rally an excuse to say that the narrative they created is justification of something that people find off-putting.


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cyberdad
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22 Aug 2020, 4:21 am

Gone with the wind is now "gone with the wind" :lol:



Bradleigh
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22 Aug 2020, 4:22 am

cyberdad wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
I hope that we can all agree here that crossdressing is not in itself offensive.


Well not really, I think the point was there was a spate of cross dressing movies and now "poof" nothing.

BTW people who cross-dress are not always angels. I worked with a gentleman who cross dressed like Klinger in MASH who was a real A-hole who ingratiated himself with management and dobbed on fellow staff members (got a few of us in trouble) but then got the sack when he was caught defrauding overtime claiming extra when he was doing private work after hours in the office.


Sure, any group can have bad people in it.

And so called crossdressing has been recontextualised a lot since earlier media. Some people who would have been called such are transgender and should be treated as their identified gender, and there are a bunch of outdated ideas of gender nonconforming people.


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cyberdad
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22 Aug 2020, 4:28 am

Bradleigh wrote:
And so called crossdressing has been recontextualised a lot since earlier media. Some people who would have been called such are transgender and should be treated as their identified gender, and there are a bunch of outdated ideas of gender nonconforming people.


If you want to get technical its called gender dysphoria that leads to cross dressing and transgender operations.



ironpony
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22 Aug 2020, 4:34 am

Bradleigh wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh well I guess the point I was making is that in a movie, if a character has a motive to disguise themselves to trick people whether or not it's disguising themselves as a different race or gender, than I don't think that in it's self is offensive.

I watched the movie You Only Live Twice with two friends and they made comments about how it was racist that Bond disguises himself as a Japanese man But Bond is only doing this to not be noticed by the villains and he is working undercover. So I didn't think it was racist since it's part of the mission.

Plus in the world of espionage, it's not you can afford to be politically correct, I figure. But is it offensive for Bond to do that, if the motive is to not be noticed by the villains?


What is offensive is not just pretending to be another race, the offense comes from a historic dressing up of people of other races for mocking purposes. I won't even claim that the example in the Bond movie is offensive, I have not seen the movie. But there has been a historic trope in movies where white people have done things like dressed up and worn makeup to look Asian, perhaps with things like buck teeth and other elements of mocking.

And it is a movie, a movie can make the decision whether a character has alter their skin colour to look like another race, it is not rally an excuse to say that the narrative they created is justification of something that people find off-putting.


Oh okay, but when Bond is on a mission to stop a terrorist act that will change the world, and he wears a disguise to go undercover, I don't think he is thinking, about how people in the movie business have treated Asian costumes, and I don't think he would care. He considers stopping the terrorist act much more important, compared to some Hollywood history. Therefore, shouldn't we the audience?



Bradleigh
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22 Aug 2020, 5:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
And so called crossdressing has been recontextualised a lot since earlier media. Some people who would have been called such are transgender and should be treated as their identified gender, and there are a bunch of outdated ideas of gender nonconforming people.


If you want to get technical its called gender dysphoria that leads to cross dressing and transgender operations.


Not exclusively. This is not really the right topic to go into depth, but there can be a variety of reasons that someone would dress as or identify as a gender separately from what they were assigned as at birth. For starters, drag queens are usually cis men, and they don't dress as women because they are dysphoric over their gender in looking like men.

I would go so far as to say that it is offensive to say that trans people and the like are required to have dysphoria to be valid. Euphoria can be much more relevant, without dysphoria playing a part, people can just feel good with it. And this is not an autogynephilic thing, that is an offensive stereotype.


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22 Aug 2020, 12:33 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Gone with the wind is now "gone with the wind" :lol:


Oh well. I won't be surprised if the USA becomes so totalitarian that they'll censor everything we are allowed to watch on TV. Just like they do over in China. :shrug:


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22 Aug 2020, 1:46 pm

I guess if that happens then, then American filmmakers will have to sell distribute their movies to Europe and Asia markets and box office instead?



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23 Aug 2020, 11:50 am

ironpony wrote:
I guess if that happens then, then American filmmakers will have to sell distribute their movies to Europe and Asia markets and box office instead?


Most of Hollywood's profits already come from overseas. Rambo is about the only thing the US exports anymore, besides soybeans.



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23 Aug 2020, 4:19 pm

DeathEmperor413 wrote:
You know? I've actually known a couple of older black women who liked Gone With the Wind. I even met a black woman at a flea market in North Georgia who was selling Mammy and Scarlett knick knacks. So I have to wonder if in reality some black people aren't really as offended by this movie as some white people are? Now that I think about it the people I know who get so offended by this movie are actually white.

Just food for thought... :?


No, I am pretty sure black people are offended too.

But social norms are complex. People who have been abused can grow up to be abusers as the behavior has been normalized. I would not argue that abused kids abuse others when they grow up so abuse can't be that bad...



DeathEmperor413
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23 Aug 2020, 4:59 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
You know? I've actually known a couple of older black women who liked Gone With the Wind. I even met a black woman at a flea market in North Georgia who was selling Mammy and Scarlett knick knacks. So I have to wonder if in reality some black people aren't really as offended by this movie as some white people are? Now that I think about it the people I know who get so offended by this movie are actually white.

Just food for thought... :?


No, I am pretty sure black people are offended too.

But social norms are complex. People who have been abused can grow up to be abusers as the behavior has been normalized. I would not argue that abused kids abuse others when they grow up so abuse can't be that bad...



I'm not saying black people aren't offended by this movie. But every black person has a different view on things. I'm just saying I have known black women who were fans of this movie.


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23 Aug 2020, 5:23 pm

DeathEmperor413 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
DeathEmperor413 wrote:
You know? I've actually known a couple of older black women who liked Gone With the Wind. I even met a black woman at a flea market in North Georgia who was selling Mammy and Scarlett knick knacks. So I have to wonder if in reality some black people aren't really as offended by this movie as some white people are? Now that I think about it the people I know who get so offended by this movie are actually white.

Just food for thought... :?


No, I am pretty sure black people are offended too.

But social norms are complex. People who have been abused can grow up to be abusers as the behavior has been normalized. I would not argue that abused kids abuse others when they grow up so abuse can't be that bad...



I'm not saying black people aren't offended by this movie. But every black person has a different view on things. I'm just saying I have known black women who were fans of this movie.


I absolutely agree. I guess this is about an individual point of view and a collective one. There are people that think the world is flat, but I am not sure we should be including flat-Earth theories in school, at least not as a valid alternative hypothesis. When we discuss social concepts, this gets muddier. But the BBC has not re-released their 1970s Black and White Minstral Show on DVD. I am OK with that...



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24 Aug 2020, 2:19 am

Well it seems that just a couple of years ago, everyone loved how a show like Game of Thrones had no filter, and anything goes almost. Now so many seem to want censorship over something like Gone with the Wind. What happened?