Inglorius Basterds
Well, I went to see it again.
Was just thinking that it's a bit like Cronenberg's "The Fly"; the violence/horror sort of fades away on re-viewing, as if it was a sort of camouflaging set of gimmicks/crowd-pulling special effects ( except that they are there to impress you with the danger, to remind you of how much is at stake ), ... or if it doesn't exactly "fade away" it becomes more clearly unreal/symbolic of a different kind of violence.
The real violence is underneath; it's about how not knowing/making the right gesture, not speaking the right way, in the everyday world, for instance, is as dangerous, as anxiety-inducing, as facing a nazi who might kill you for it. The tension and terror of putting a foot wrong socially.
It's brilliant. The cat and mouse game of "passing", of resisting psychological, social and verbal pressures designed/intended to breakdown/pierce a facade/pretence/mask which was developed/practiced in order to stay alive/save lives.
The nazis in the film, ( not the german sniper ), are all the time "sniffing" out "who" people are, "what" and "where" they are, counting and describing them, penetrating disguises/pretences/hiding places and exposing people. The "basterds"'s revenge, even more than killing, is to make sure that everybody will know who, and what, they ( the nazis ) really are.
It's painfully suspenseful, and heartbreaking, to see one person after another ( the dairy farmer, Soshanna in the cafe eating "strudel", the team meeting the german actress ) , "putting on a show", performing, because their lives are, or may be, on the line if they cannot do it.
I love this film.
PS. I knew there was some reason, ( apart from the obvious one ), why the film kept reminding me of "Carrie", and oddly enough of "Christine" ( the one with the car ), but this time the revenge is not guilt-ridden, neurotic, anxious, self-hating, but "in yer face". I put "jubilatory", but it isn't ... what is it?
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Last edited by ouinon on 24 Sep 2009, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PPS. It's interesting that the revenges are in fact sooo very similar to the nazi behaviour; in one case nazis shot down while trapped in an enclosed space, and in the other case(s) marking them/exposing them for what they are. Examples of the victim who later copies their abuser's treatment of them.
Is that a flaw ( in the film, that these revenges may be "enjoyed"/admired and/or gratefully welcomed and identified with by people )? Or is it a warning, ( to anyone who sees themselves as a victim )?
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I was trying to work out who the goodies and baddies are in the film; like in a cowboys and indians story, ... or in "the good the bad and the ugly" , and I think "ugly" ( the worst ) is actually Brad Pitt's character. He's the third element, neither nazi nor jew. He uses other people's pain/suffering as a weapon, a devastating guided missile, to hunt down, and eliminate, or identify forever, enemies of America ( or the multinational economic/cultural empire that the USA represents ). He "fires" fatal weapons made of human beings at other human beings who threaten that empire.
It is not Landa who is the arch-villain; it is Pitt's character. He cynically uses people's suffering and pain to attack others.
And the funny thing is that Landa "thinks like a rat". Why/how is that he "thinks like a rat"? Because he is "a rat" perhaps? One that has developed the most perfect protective colouring of all, ( with four languages, plenty of smiles, and an even bigger pipe than everybody else as part of his performance ), but when he abandons its shelter he is exposed as an innocent child; "But you said that you would ...", "It's not fair, we agreed ...", and is finally "caught" in the open, without the rules he has leaned on, relied on, believed in, followed obediently, ... ( and which functioned as prosthetic replacements for whatever personal strength/experience/wisdom that he lacks ), and when he is caught, who is it that marks him? Who is it that carves that utterly humiliating sign on his forehead, but the man who makes weapons out of children who have been abused.
I like Landa, though rather less after he has stopped trusting in the purity and unblemished honour of the German people and its goals, ( I think that it is the actress's treachery which causes the scales to fall from his eyes ), because you realise how weak he is, but he is direct, transparent, childlike, curious, and has a sense of justice, ( and murderous meltdowns if he thinks that someone has betrayed a loyalty ). His problem was believing in the nazi ideals/principles ... his problem/failing/mistake was maybe in trying to hide, at whatever cost.
But Pitt's character is an abomination, a monster, a machine. He will say anything to achieve the American/multinational empire's goals, and has no qualms using living people and their unhealed trauma to fight with.
The only "good" person that I could think of in the whole film was the german officer who refused to divulge to the "basterds" the whereabouts of other german soldiers, even though he knew he was almost certainly going to be beaten to death as a result. He was wearing lots of medals, and one of the "basterds" asks him tauntingly what all the badges are for, and he says "Courage", ( which is interesting because I think it is only lack of courage which makes Landa a baddie ).
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But Pitt's character is an abomination, a monster, a machine. He will say anything to achieve the American/multinational empire's goals, and has no qualms using living people and their unhealed trauma to fight with.
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I like Aldo Raine (the character played by Pitt). He is clear, uncomplicated and totally righteous. His motive is revenge against the Bad Guys. His motto: Ah want mah scalps.
It is too bad that in the Real World there were never any Jewish Revenge Commandos. That would have been just and condign.
ruveyn
It never really happened in the real world or anything like it even close.
ruveyn
Despite the existence of many jewish partisan bands, the Special Interrogation Group, the presence of jewish soldiers in allied military formations, and the behaviour near the end of the war and just after it by jews towards British troops in Israel/Palestine, nothing even close to reprisal attacks against Germans ever occurred? I would be most surprised if that was the case.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
I would love for it to be true that Jewish Revenge Commandos did horrible outrageous things to Nazis. (Bashing heads with baseball bats, carving swastikas into flesh, cutting off genitals, etc. etc.) Do you have any evidence that such happened? If so can you provide some references? Thank you.
Even a bunch of bad-asses like the Stern Gang had their limits. For example, a half hour before the King David Hotel was blown up a warning call was placed to the British HQ in the hotel. The Brits chose not to take the warning seriously. The result? BOOM!
ruveyn
Like I said, ... the USA/America. And his motive is not revenge, the nazis never did him the sort of harm which cries out for revenge; his motive is strategic/tactical, in pursuit of "peace keeping", ( ... that is to say making sure that no other country gains as much power as the USA ) . And he uses people's suffering to that end, fires them up to take revenge over and over again, like gladiators in an arena as part of a propaganda effort, ( the "tunnel" entrance that the nazi-crusher "bear" makes his entrance by is not an accident ).
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I would have signed up for his commando in a New York Minute. Aldo Raine is my kind of guy. A righteous leader for a Good Cause. Killing Bad Guys is Good. If there were more of such activity in the world there would be fewer Bad Guys.
BTW I loved the movie and when I comes out on disk, I am buy the disk.
I will bet it has not occurred to you that there are people who think the making Bad Guys suffer and die is a really, really Good Idea. The way to fight Evil is to kill Evil people and do it as horrendously as possible to serve as an example, a warning and a deterrent. The only reason why Evil succeeds is because good people do not step up and do something about it.
Here is to Aldo Raine. It is too bad he is pure fiction.
ruveyn
I would love for it to be true that Jewish Revenge Commandos did horrible outrageous things to Nazis. (Bashing heads with baseball bats, carving swastikas into flesh, cutting off genitals, etc. etc.) Do you have any evidence that such happened? If so can you provide some references? Thank you.
Even a bunch of bad-asses like the Stern Gang had their limits. For example, a half hour before the King David Hotel was blown up a warning call was placed to the British HQ in the hotel. The Brits chose not to take the warning seriously. The result? BOOM!
ruveyn
I'm quite happy to research it. I just find it spurious to claim that in such a vicious no-holds-barred conflict, where atrocities were committed by many participants (look at what the Russians did to the Germans on the way to Berlin by way of example) that at NO point did anyone of jewish descent fighting against the Nazis (which obviously DID happen) commit any attack that might be considered "terror", that never did a jewish partisan cut the balls off an SS officer in reprisal for the liquidation of his family, or a jewish commando get a bit free with his bayonet coming off the Normandy beaches. There are plenty of cases of other partisans/soldiers doing disagreeable things to the enemy, things that lie outside the Geneva convention, so it seems unlikely that, facing the aggressor who openly advertised that they wished to eradicate their whole race, no jew ever reacted like that when confronted by that enemy.
Of course the problem is, its hardly "PC" to claim that Jews might have committed "atrocities" or "war-crimes" and I suspect that any claim made to that effect would be disregarded as anti-semetic propaganda.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]
BTW I loved the movie and when I comes out on disk, I am buy the disk.
I will bet it has not occurred to you that there are people who think the making Bad Guys suffer and die is a really, really Good Idea. The way to fight Evil is to kill Evil people and do it as horrendously as possible to serve as an example, a warning and a deterrent. The only reason why Evil succeeds is because good people do not step up and do something about it.
Here is to Aldo Raine. It is too bad he is pure fiction.
ruveyn
Aldo Raine? your kind of guy? what Aldo Raine did to the Nazis was wrong(e.g Carving swastikas in foreheads, and beating up Nazi unarmed with a cub), i am a Jew myself, i am as angered about what the Nazis did to the Jews as the basterds are. Do you thing killing and injuring someone unarmed and sadisticly is good? if Aldo Raine did not carve a swastika onto Hans Landa's forehead, Hans would have brecame nicer to the Jews.
I am aware that there are many people in the world who think that killing other people is a good idea. I do not think that Tarantino is one of them.
Aldo Raine is a frighteningly brilliant portrait/example of this kind of person, ( aswell as of american mentality in general ); it is frightening because it shows how "acceptable", and "eminently sane and reasonable" they, and this attitude, can seem. The gung-ho all-american lets go get 'em straightforward up-front cards on the table guns blazing put the world to rights kick ass no nonsense "real man" approach.
Aldo Raine is the USA encouraging/perpetuating "jewish feeling" ( of victimhood etc ), in Israel for example, in order to achieve American goals. His commando are like a pack of dogs to him, their brutality and resentment to be encouraged so that they remain effective attack dogs. He doesn't care about the jewish people; all he is interested in is american domination.
The scariest thing is how much pressure there is to like and admire this kind of person, and attitude. So that it is almost difficult to criticise them, question them, resist them, not like and admire them. Like if I don't hang out with this person, don't approve of them, ( or what they do ), I must be uncool, I risk exclusion/ridicule for being "uptight"/square/over-sensitive.
He is the playground top-dog/sports-jock. Sooo popular. The most utterly horrifying and terrifying kind of baddie, because it is so difficult to recognise him.
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Aldo Raine? your kind of guy? what Aldo Raine did to the Nazis was wrong(e.g Carving swastikas in foreheads, and beating up Nazi unarmed with a cub), i am a Jew myself, i am as angered about what the Nazis did to the Jews as the basterds are. Do you thing killing and injuring someone unarmed and sadisticly is good? if Aldo Raine did not carve a swastika onto Hans Landa's forehead, Hans would have brecame nicer to the Jews.
If Jews had been more "muscular" they would not have been victims so often.
Yes. I think killing, injuring and harming an Evil Person sadistically is good. It makes an example of them. It serves as a warning. It is the delivery of justice.
If thine enemy smite thee on thy cheek, rip his head off and take a dump down his severed neck.
It is like my Daddy taught me; don't get mad. Get even.
ruveyn
Aldo Raine? your kind of guy? what Aldo Raine did to the Nazis was wrong(e.g Carving swastikas in foreheads, and beating up Nazi unarmed with a cub), i am a Jew myself, i am as angered about what the Nazis did to the Jews as the basterds are. Do you thing killing and injuring someone unarmed and sadisticly is good? if Aldo Raine did not carve a swastika onto Hans Landa's forehead, Hans would have brecame nicer to the Jews.
If Jews had been more "muscular" they would not have been victims so often.
Yes. I think killing, injuring and harming an Evil Person sadistically is good. It makes an example of them. It serves as a warning. It is the delivery of justice.
If thine enemy smite thee on thy cheek, rip his head off and take a dump down his severed neck.
It is like my Daddy taught me; don't get mad. Get even.
ruveyn
Beating up and killing Nazis sadistically, would only fuel their anti semitism, the way to cure their Anti Semitism is to be kind to them.
Aldo Raine? your kind of guy? what Aldo Raine did to the Nazis was wrong(e.g Carving swastikas in foreheads, and beating up Nazi unarmed with a cub), i am a Jew myself, i am as angered about what the Nazis did to the Jews as the basterds are. Do you thing killing and injuring someone unarmed and sadisticly is good? if Aldo Raine did not carve a swastika onto Hans Landa's forehead, Hans would have brecame nicer to the Jews.
If Jews had been more "muscular" they would not have been victims so often.
Yes. I think killing, injuring and harming an Evil Person sadistically is good. It makes an example of them. It serves as a warning. It is the delivery of justice.
If thine enemy smite thee on thy cheek, rip his head off and take a dump down his severed neck.
It is like my Daddy taught me; don't get mad. Get even.
ruveyn
Beating up and killing Nazis sadistically, would only fuel their anti semitism, the way to cure their Anti Semitism is to be kind to them.
Passive resistance, or even complete inaction or a resignment to fate is what got so many people killed in the first place. Individual acts of "kindness" are recorded on all sides of the war, as much as acts of brutality and sadism.. Even large acts of a magnanimous nature occured ... (The general well-treatment by the 9th SS of paratroops captured at Arnhem, as opposed to the SS massacre of American POWS at malmedy are two examples.) None of these acts helped to reduce anti-semitism as a whole. Clearly very few Jews in pre-war Germany were "evil" or acted unpleasantly to Germans as a whole, but it was still possible to build up anti-semitic feelings, even in the face of people knowing and marrying into Jewish families etc etc.
_________________
"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart,
that you can't take part" [Mario Savo, 1964]

It is not Landa who is the arch-villain; it is Pitt's character. He cynically uses people's suffering and pain to attack others.
And the funny thing is that Landa "thinks like a rat". Why/how is that he "thinks like a rat"? Because he is "a rat" perhaps? One that has developed the most perfect protective colouring of all, ( with four languages, plenty of smiles, and an even bigger pipe than everybody else as part of his performance ), but when he abandons its shelter he is exposed as an innocent child; "But you said that you would ...", "It's not fair, we agreed ...", and is finally "caught" in the open, without the rules he has leaned on, relied on, believed in, followed obediently, ... ( and which functioned as prosthetic replacements for whatever personal strength/experience/wisdom that he lacks ), and when he is caught, who is it that marks him? Who is it that carves that utterly humiliating sign on his forehead, but the man who makes weapons out of children who have been abused.
I like Landa, though rather less after he has stopped trusting in the purity and unblemished honour of the German people and its goals, ( I think that it is the actress's treachery which causes the scales to fall from his eyes ), because you realise how weak he is, but he is direct, transparent, childlike, curious, and has a sense of justice, ( and murderous meltdowns if he thinks that someone has betrayed a loyalty ). His problem was believing in the nazi ideals/principles ... his problem/failing/mistake was maybe in trying to hide, at whatever cost.
But Pitt's character is an abomination, a monster, a machine. He will say anything to achieve the American/multinational empire's goals, and has no qualms using living people and their unhealed trauma to fight with.
The only "good" person that I could think of in the whole film was the german officer who refused to divulge to the "basterds" the whereabouts of other german soldiers, even though he knew he was almost certainly going to be beaten to death as a result. He was wearing lots of medals, and one of the "basterds" asks him tauntingly what all the badges are for, and he says "Courage", ( which is interesting because I think it is only lack of courage which makes Landa a baddie ).
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Very nice analysis, Ouinon and I can relate a lot to the way you see Landa and Aldo Raine. I've watched the film with my husband and two friends and each of us saw them in a different light - they work a bit like a mirror in a way...
_________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)
In reply to Laconvivencia, Ruveyn, and Macbeth's points above ( sorry; I forgot to quote ):
Interestingly the film seems to suggest that what changes people's minds about a group of people depends on their being able to "see", clearly, however fleetingly, the individual in the crowd, so that they realise that their ideologies/neat and tidy labels are faulty/inadequate. And what might cause this sudden clarity may depend on which group you belong to/whether you belong to the "dominant" or "victim/subordinate" group.
Both Landa and Soshanna lose their "defences", their protective "shells", and become vulnerable, ( "human" ), on seeing a german behave in a way which didn't fit with their idea of them.
Landa believes germany, and germans, are pure, high-principled, and finds shelter in following german "rules" perfectly/brilliantly, until he discovers that a famous german actress is a "traitor", ... remember how he says as he looks at the scene in the underground bar; " Something doesn't quite fit"
And Soshanna sees all germans as evil, deserving nothing but death, until she perceives something on screen/in film/art that she hadn't seen in the flesh till then; that the german sniper feels remorse and horror at killing so many allied soldiers, even when it was in self-defence.
But Aldo never stops marking/labelling people, putting them in groups. He remains inhuman. [ NB. He "objects" deeply to the underground nature of the bar! Is it because it represents the unconscious where growth and change happens? ]
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Last edited by ouinon on 25 Sep 2009, 10:21 am, edited 7 times in total.