Page 1 of 1 [ 10 posts ] 

pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,903
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

23 Jun 2013, 4:16 am

What do you think about this episode of DS9.

In this episode capitain Sisko fired bio weapon on Maquis colony, i think Sisko overstepped his authority to capture Eddington, and commit crime himself.

I does not understand why the crew listened to him at all.
After all, solider have the right and duty to refuse to perform a criminal order, i doubt that changed in future



GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

23 Jun 2013, 7:57 am

This episode is one of the reasons I like DS9 so much more than the other iterations of Star Trek. It's very challenging and a bit troubling.

The episode illustrates the ruthless nature of 'total conflict.' Eddington was willing to go to any length to achieve his goals. Sisko has a choice. He can either let Eddington go again or drop the gloves and do whatever it takes to stop him.

Certainly, what Sisko did was not right, but it was the only way to stop Eddington. I think Sisko's officers understood this and that's why they supported his actions. It was a case of the ends justifying the means.

Also, the conflict between Eddington and the Maquis and Sisko and his staff had become very personal. Generally, the more personal a conflict becomes, the nastier it gets.

This sort of honest illustration about the nature of conflict and the toll it demands from the participants is something that DS9 does really well.

A real world analog to this would be Allied strategic bombing during WWII. As Curtis LeMay, commander of USAAF in the Pacific theater, once noted, if the Allies had lost, he would have surely been prosecuted for war crimes. LeMay was fully aware that he was ordering his forces to commit atrocities (like firebombing civilians), but he gave the orders anyway and his bomber crews obeyed because that is what rapid victory demanded.

That's the nature of conflict. It's not nice.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,903
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

23 Jun 2013, 9:35 am

GoonSquad wrote:
This episode is one of the reasons I like DS9 so much more than the other iterations of Star Trek. It's very challenging and a bit troubling.

The episode illustrates the ruthless nature of 'total conflict.' Eddington was willing to go to any length to achieve his goals. Sisko has a choice. He can either let Eddington go again or drop the gloves and do whatever it takes to stop him.

Certainly, what Sisko did was not right, but it was the only way to stop Eddington. I think Sisko's officers understood this and that's why they supported his actions. It was a case of the ends justifying the means.

Also, the conflict between Eddington and the Maquis and Sisko and his staff had become very personal. Generally, the more personal a conflict becomes, the nastier it gets.

This sort of honest illustration about the nature of conflict and the toll it demands from the participants is something that DS9 does really well.



A real world analog to this would be Allied strategic bombing during WWII. As Curtis LeMay, commander of USAAF in the Pacific theater, once noted, if the Allies had lost, he would have surely been prosecuted for war crimes. LeMay was fully aware that he was ordering his forces to commit atrocities (like firebombing civilians), but he gave the orders anyway and his bomber crews obeyed because that is what rapid victory demanded.

That's the nature of conflict. It's not nice.


For the uniform is also favorite of my, i love ds9, today i watched this on AXN tv, the have broadcast lot of great tv series re-run.

I watched DS9 multiple times

I have to admit that after watching this episode Captain Sisko lost a lot of respect in my eyes, I thought that Commander Worf will disobey and told Sisko that is dishonorable and as Klingon he don't obey dishonorable and obviously criminal order.
I think after what Sisko did he become more like Dukat.



zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,615

23 Jun 2013, 10:55 am

In large part, IIRC, the planet was not highly populated. Sisko's actions made the planet uninhabitable for a finite time period, but the people could evac in time after the deed was done.

He was gambling that Eddington would sacrifice himself to stop him from harming innocents. Had Sisko been wrong, it could have gotten ugly.



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,903
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

23 Jun 2013, 12:41 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
In large part, IIRC, the planet was not highly populated. Sisko's actions made the planet uninhabitable for a finite time period, but the people could evac in time after the deed was done.

He was gambling that Eddington would sacrifice himself to stop him from harming innocents. Had Sisko been wrong, it could have gotten ugly.



IMHO He committed war crime by poisoning the planet, it conduct unbecoming for starfleet he should be demoted and send to the sane penal colony as ex-Admiral Leyton :D , BTW during Leyton cup he passionately saying about Federation values, but when he started to hunt Eddignton he forgot about this.



GoonSquad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2007
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,748
Location: International House of Paincakes...

23 Jun 2013, 3:48 pm

^^^ Come now.... That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

What Sisko did was certainly not admirable but it was not the height of villainy either.
Unlike other Star Trek leads, Sisko is a flawed man doing the best he can in an imperfect universe. Other lead characters are never even put in the kinds of impossible situations Sisko faces.

What would Picard do in this situation? Most likely he'd make some pompous finger-wagging speech, refuse to take action and allow Eddington to disrupt the entire region and start a war... (or he'd have some magical, unrealistic solution).

To be sure, there's a degree of personal "payback" driving Sisko's actions here, but there's also a service to the greater good....

The difference between Sisko and Leyton or Dukat is that ultimately what Sisko does is selfless, while the actions of the other two are selfish.
Leyton and Dukat are both megalomaniacs who think they should be in charge because they know what's best for us poor dumb bastards.

By contrast, in this episode and even more in "In The Pale Moonlight." Sisko is just doing the "hard thing" for the greater good... he's sacrificing his clean conscience to preserve the Federation.

As I said before, Sisko's actions are not heroic, but I think they were necessary and certainly not villainous. Conflict, when examined in a more realistic way, is not pretty, or neatly solved. DS9 is great at showing this in a way that other Star Trek series do not.


_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus


pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,903
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

23 Jun 2013, 5:32 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ Come now.... That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

What Sisko did was certainly not admirable but it was not the height of villainy either.
Unlike other Star Trek leads, Sisko is a flawed man doing the best he can in an imperfect universe. Other lead characters are never even put in the kinds of impossible situations Sisko faces.

What would Picard do in this situation? Most likely he'd make some pompous finger-wagging speech, refuse to take action and allow Eddington to disrupt the entire region and start a war... (or he'd have some magical, unrealistic solution).

To be sure, there's a degree of personal "payback" driving Sisko's actions here, but there's also a service to the greater good....

The difference between Sisko and Leyton or Dukat is that ultimately what Sisko does is selfless, while the actions of the other two are selfish.
Leyton and Dukat are both megalomaniacs who think they should be in charge because they know what's best for us poor dumb bastards.

By contrast, in this episode and even more in "In The Pale Moonlight." Sisko is just doing the "hard thing" for the greater good... he's sacrificing his clean conscience to preserve the Federation.

As I said before, Sisko's actions are not heroic, but I think they were necessary and certainly not villainous. Conflict, when examined in a more realistic way, is not pretty, or neatly solved. DS9 is great at showing this in a way that other Star Trek series do not.


Overall, Sisko is my favorite captain of all Star Trek, that's why all this so pisses me off because he doing something as vile as poisoning the planet's atmosphere.

As for In "The Pale Moonlight" i remember as he hired Garek to help him convince Romulans to join war against Dominion, but Garak behind his back assassinated Romulan diplomat and framed Dominion. Sisko beat Garek heavily for this but he realized that what Garek do was necessary.


I remember similar ethical plot in Voyager, where Tuvok an Nelix was merged together in transporter accident, and Tuvix was created but captain Janeway decided to kill him to restore Tuvok and Nelix. I hated her for that. Yet another example was "Similitude" from ENT where captain archer decided to create clone to save Trip. But Trip clone was living sentient being yet archer decided to kill him to save Trip.



zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,615

23 Jun 2013, 5:50 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
^^^ Come now.... That's a bit harsh, don't you think?

What Sisko did was certainly not admirable but it was not the height of villainy either.


I'd have to watch the episode again, but IIRC, Eddington betrayed the Federation in a time of war, and Sisko was instructed to bring him in at pretty much any cost.

I think Starfleet would approve of his actions...especially as the poisoning was not permanent and the people on the poisoned planet could readily be evacuated.

Now, glassing a world of 5 billion people would be another issue.



Venger
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,519

24 Jun 2013, 9:35 am

Eddington committed himself and the rest of the Maquis in that episode by attacking two federation starships. That proved the Maqui were a serious threat to Federation security, so Sisko's actions were justified.



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,903
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

24 Jun 2013, 9:40 am

Venger wrote:
Eddington committed himself and the rest of the Maquis in that episode by attacking two federation starships. That proved the Maqui were a serious threat to Federation security, so Sisko's actions were justified.


Maybe right, but the maybe some of the planets residents ware innocent, and don't knew about Eddington actions but Sisko decided to attack civilians.