Epiphanies and Revelations

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but so many times over a period of several years

Over how many years, there are 365 days in a year and only 60 minutes in a hour.

365/60 = 6 and a bit

Assuming you don't have a totally over the place life style and say on average wake up 30 minutes either side of a given time you would wake up, just on average 6 times a year at exactly the same time.


Of course the time you wake up is substantially less random than that, the body has a very good internal clock. Waking up at exactly the same time way 100 times in the year wouldn't be unusual

Also once you start to notice something, you brain will notice it more often and ignore the things that don't fit the pattern. this is the nature of superstition. A gambler for instance wins with the number 6 twice in a row. 6 becomes his lucky number. Dispite the fact that he's lost his house, his family and become bankrupt and started steeling to pay for his gambling habit he's convinced that 6 is his lucky number because he won twice in a row and that can't be a coincidence. And there were all those other times he won when placing a bet on a six. He's just waiting for his luck to come around again and he'll be rich and win back all the money he's lost, so he hasn't really lost it, just invested it.

Jesus' own words will address what lingering doubts you may have: "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it..."
- Matthew 12:39

Silly bible code arguments (which I am quite familiar with already), is not related to the SCIENCE of mathematics. Most of such people can't do math correctly to begin with, but I've read their gibberish, their nonsense, .. it's not science.

We will have to agree, to disagree. Prime Numbers are not "random" occurence. If it were, Carl Sagan would not have thought to base the entirety of "Contact" on a non-random sequence of Prime Numbers which he theorized to be evidence of intelligent life in the cosmos. Only a highly advanced culture would think to communicate by a simple sequence of prime numbers, because it is _not_ a random pattern. If its good enough for Carl Sagan (an Atheist, but foremost, a Scientist) then its good enough for me.

I support neither organized religions or atheism. I am an advocate of Science.

"Carl Edward Sagan (November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996) was an American astronomer, astrophysicist, author, cosmologist, and highly successful popularizer of astronomy, astrophysics and other natural sciences. During his lifetime, he published more than 600 scientific papers and popular articles and was author, co-author, or editor of more than 20 books. In his works, he advocated skeptical inquiry and the scientific method. He pioneered exobiology and promoted the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI)."
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan

Self Service Science - ABC Science Online Forum
Carl Sagan's point about prime numbers in any signal from an extrterrestrial intelligence was that there is no known natural process that generates primes. ...
- abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/archives/.../topic650600.shtm

[PDF] Prime Numbers and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
POMERANCE: Prime Numbers and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence.
- math.dartmouth.edu/~carlp/PDF/extraterrestrial.pdf

I'm not saying that prime numbers aren't random. Just that the events were.
It's more lightly that prime numbers are going to come up as they aren't random too, because sometimes people are going to want to use something that's none random. For instance in the film you mention. There are many other films with many other numbers in them, many of them probably prime. Why do you ignore all those other films you've watched? Like the ones with none prime numbers.

Even if you've only watched one film in you life, there are several billion people on the planet, chances (based on random probability) are that someone who'd only watched one film in their life would watch that one.

Christians believe that Jesus is 'evidence' of God. I'm not going to quite Jesus 'own' words again (though I would call them words attributed to Matthew who attributed them to Jesus)

"Carl Sagan would not have thought to base the entirety of "Contact" on a non-random sequence of Prime Numbers which he theorized to be evidence of intelligent life in the cosmos. Only a highly advanced culture would think to communicate by a simple sequence of prime numbers, because it is _not_ a random pattern. If its good enough for Carl Sagan (an Atheist, but foremost, a Scientist) then its good enough for me. "

There's a neurological condition attributed to people who believe they are being sent messages because they spot patterns in random events and attribute it to some kind of supernatural or otherwise communication to them.

People with Asperger's are also known for spotting the patterns and feeling it is 'personal' to them, but not that it's some kind of communication with them.

Though that may not always be the case.

Yes, you are. That's a double negative which equates to "I'm saying that prime numbers are random." I have pointed out, prime numbers, when written in sequence, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 are a sign of higher intelligence and mathematicians... and Carl Sagan knew it.

I know it.

Real Signs of Intelligence
Real signs of extra-terrestrial intelligence: ... signal will use a non-random numerical sequence such as prime numbers: ...
- evolutionoftruth.com/div/divprop.htm



No. That is false. It is not random if a person wakes up, without an alarm for years ... and seeing 3:57 a.m. on their clock. Saying it is random does not make it so. If I make a trip to the grocery store every Wednesday at 5 pm, after two months a clear pattern will have been established, and by no means constitutes a "random event".

I did not wake up at 2:47 or 3:55. I would wake up to see 3:57 ... until it became quite frightening. As if something (a ghost, another dimension, some force beyond this realm was causing it). It troubled me, because it was _always_ 57 or 357 ... sometimes accompanied by a 2 or an 11. After a decade of such strange experiences I began asking people if "57" or "357" meant anything. Prime numbers never crossed my mind.
I am rational, I am reasonable, -- enough so, to recognize a coherent numeric pattern and to ask questions after a long enough time. I'm positive, it is not random to wake up during the night, for year after year, and turn to the clock and seeing 3:57 on the clock.

As soon as this occurs, even three times in a row, a pattern has been established and is no longer "random".

Such questions are included on IQ tests. Is there a pattern here?
1239, 1248, 1257, 1266, 1275, 1284?
Do you see a pattern in the mix, or is it merely "random" numbers as you say?
Will you allow Atheism (and the necessity to deny what's seen with your own eyes, and your own brain tells you) to dull your intellect?

Is there a pattern in those numbers? Yes or no? As soon as you say "No" we will know you've failed that section of the IQ test.



Because they are not in discussion.



What does any of this have to do with a sequence of prime numbers being "Random"?

I'm quite Aspergers, and being around Atheists for so many years, I became accustomed to argument fallacies and diversion tactics. I am asking for you to disprove Carl Sagan's theory that a sequence of prime numbers fails to demonstrate higher intelligence is at work.

In the field of archaeology and anthropology, all one must find is evidence of a simple 90 degree angle to conclude that higher "intelligence" was present.

I'm not saying that prime numbers aren't random.

sorry, I meant to say : I'm not saying that prime numbers are random.

Though that was a colloquial use of a double negative.


I'll be more specific, the correlation between the events in by pure chance. Such that the correlation fits in with random probably.

Now you waking at at that time wasn't random? But why did you wake up at that time? was that random. Was the things that you needed to wake up for random, what about what it was based on was that random, and what about that. At some point along the line waking up at that time will no longer be deterministic so you waking up at that time was random, though quite possibly not within you life span.

You could pick all manner of things at random and find some kind of pattern of none random things within them. Just like the Bible code. What you have noticed is no different. When the bible code people spotted it in the bible, they quite probably felt the same way you do, and used many of the same arguments.

That is the whole basis of Carl Sagan's "Contact". Are you perhaps proposing he was insane? And I would LOVE for you to point me to any mental health clinic who locks people up in asylums for a belief in God. If that were the case, about 85-90% of the United States population would be sitting in mental asylums. Please point me to these clinical texts implemented by professionals who deem "gods" a "mental malady". Did you know they could lose their ability to practice medicine? A Psychiatrist does not have a right to intrude on one's constitutional rights, most importantly, the Freedom of Worship. There is a thing called "The Separation of Church and State". You see, that is where Atheists cross the line and become evangelical crusaders -- as bad, or worse, than any religious zealot ever imagined, with abuse of state power.

Again, are you denying that a sequence of prime numbers are non-random? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Ad Hominems won't sway me on this matter.

Do you know why? Because Atheism is by no means any "meter stick of sanity". If you would like me to provide documentation of the 100 Million butchered under Atheist regimes; Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, I will be happy to prove to you, the insanity that is Atheism. There's a particular document on Hawaii University's website that may be of interest to you on the death tolls, under Communist (Atheist) regimes.

Karl Marx on Religion
It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. ...
atheism.about.com › ... › Weekly Quotes

Entire death camps operated on soil of the USSR throughout the 1920's, some designated solely for Christians and this was long before Hitler took power in Germany in the 1930's.

Would you like to discuss the true meaning of "insanity"?



Ah so, you confess then that a sequence of prime numbers constitutes a "pattern" and therefore, not "random" as you claimed in your previous posts?

" I am asking for you to disprove Carl Sagan's theory that a sequence of prime numbers fails to demonstrate higher intelligence is at work. "

Do you know what prime numbers are?

You can for instance produce prime numbers from an extrapolation of the basics of set theory.

Do the basic axioms of set theory point to intelligence?

Prime numbers are essencially the dis-harmonic numbers in the integer sequence starting at 1 and raising in increments of 1 to infinity.

There's noting intelligent about that, no form of design. Determinism predicates that there must be such a sequence.

I can produce determinism following purely logical rules, starting from random.

in a sense prime numbers are random in that they are not predictable, they must be determined.

" mental health "

Mental health is about the negative effects that the condition a person has on them selfs and others around them.

For instance Autistic spectrum or ADD/ADHD can lead to mental heath problems, though the conditions in themselves are not mental health and other social problems.

Plenty of people are in prison because of they have ADD/ADHD for instance.

/snipping diversions, attempts to ad hom and refusal to address question.
Are the numbers 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 a random sequence of numbers?
A simple yes or no.

What is so difficult to answer?

After a decade of being around daily proselytizing by Atheists and Agnostics, I'm not easily swayed by all these things you're diverting away from. Again for posterity, Is 2, 3, 5, 7, 11 merely a random sequence of numbers?

I should say not! But a simple yes or no already.

Funny how Religion(TM) atheism or theism -- all of it is philosophical nonsense and meaningless drivel) and makes people do mental gymnastics all around the issues, instead of sticking with and addressing the simple question that is actually in discussion.

Last edited by AspieForty on 13 Apr 2010, 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

" Atheist regimes; Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, I will be happy to prove to you, the insanity that is Atheism. There's a particular document on Hawaii University's website that may be of interest to you on the death tolls, under Communist (Atheist) regimes. "

You have presented me with no evidence that their killings were based on insanity or that indeed any taking of life, or other forms of disctuction, or change, or enthropy are in any way a sign of insanity or wrong doing.


Belief maybe, but Belief is not scientific nor based on fact.

you have also presented me with no evidence that it was their Atheism that resulted in the killings, is it not possible for someone to be insane in some other way that just belief in God. (that's your argument not mine, I have no idea where you got it from)

"mental gymnastics"

for you maybe, why did you mention that, you were the one talking about prime numbers. Was I not sticking to the point. You didn't mention what the point was to bring me back on track.

Do you feel this is somehow gymnastics? Is merely stating facts about the points you have mentioned somehow gymnastics.

Picking out grammatical errors and the like, does seem some what off topic on the other hand.

I feel I can no longer comment without getting too personal. (as in relating to yourself, not as in against your person) Though I in no way would ever say anything meaning any harm, others may not take it that way.

Feel free to continue the discussion off thread. (no I'm not about to start insulting you, I'm not that kind of person. I have no problems with some other public forum more orientated to this kind of discussion where it would be more obvious that I am not in any way making personal remarks about you).

Wrong planet rules are against getting too personal about things.

Tip of the iceberg. If this is your definition of "sanity" ??

Atheism - Part IV: Naziism vs. Christianity - Colfax Record
Apr 3, 2010 ... Karl Marx said: "Communism begins from the outset with atheism." Mass-murderer Vladimir Lenin agreed, saying: "A Marxist must be a .... but you have to agree with the precept that totalitarian regimes eliminate all forms ...
my colfaxrecord com/detail/146462.html

Or perhaps the fraud "Reverend" Jim Jones who was infamously espousing his loyalties to the USSR, and famed for saying "How could I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church."

SOURCE:

Peoples Temple - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In that regard, Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." (Jones, Jim. ...
en wikipedia org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

Again, this is merely the tip of the iceberg for the meaning of "deceits".

Bolsheviks and the Orthodox Church: Communism Became the New ...
Followers of God were now to follow the cult of Lenin. Lenin has been compared to a high priest and a god during the Bolsheviks' war on the Orthodox Church, ...
russian-ukrainian-belarus-history.suite101.com/.../bolsheviks_and_the_orthodox_church

Vladimir Lenin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lenin was born Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, on 22 April [O.S. 10 April] 1870, ..... Orlando Figes estimates that perhaps 8000 priests and laymen were executed. ...
- en wikipedia org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

Marxism
Atheistic communism is a sword of division; it cuts asunder families, ..... The Soviet Communist leader Nikolai Lenin showed that he had learned well from his ... we reiterate that atheism is an integral part of orthodox Marxism. ...
- greatcom org/resources/handbook_of.../default htm

Communism - New World Encyclopedia
At its roots, Marxism-Leninism is atheistic and materialistic. ... The Marxist theory of surplus value was an integral part of his whole system of thought, ...
- newworldencyclopedia org/entry/Communism

1: Random numbers are deterministic, but not predictable. So they are both random and none random.

2: They are in no means a sign of intelligence in themselves, though an intelligent life form would probably use them to communicate, because they are a good basis for building a language upon, not because they are none random. There are many other things that are none random.

3: Just because you notice a pattern, does not mean that the pattern was not as the result of random probability. The pattern you noticed most certainly was. That fact that the things in the pattern are based on something that is deterministic in now way means that the pattern was not random. There is no logical inference.


4: Some religious people feel that they have seen a sign or a message sent to them, though I do not believe that this is a common occurrence. At least not in the way you are saying. This is also a treat of of a medical condition.

5: Just because you have a medical condition doesn't mean that you have a mental health problem. Nor does being insane, you can be insane and be quite happy and be no problem to anyone.

6: A single action of a person is no measure of insanity. Insanity is a measure of a person being founded in reality.

7: Believing what someone you trust tells you is probably a good way to determine reality when you have little else to go on.

8: Science is the study of truth, how else can reality be measured except as a measure of truth and falsehood?