25 Jun 2005, 2:51 pm
25 Jun 2005, 2:54 pm
25 Jun 2005, 3:09 pm
Hi and welcome aboard! 
How did you notice that?
25 Jun 2005, 6:58 pm
How did you notice that?
Hi guys...
Because I have a hard time reading faces...I have concentrated on other things about them
...
I can now see facial markings that identify Asperger's and ADHD... In ADHD the face has a very youthful appearance due to it's proportions. The eyes are set slightly differently from Neurotypical eyes.
The Asperger marking is what I have termed "the brow". I have it... but it is slight...I also have the eye ADHD eyes. These facial "signs" are not enough to identify...there are also the signs of internal reference*. (Many neurotypicals have these features but are not internally referent)
Some AS people seem social...but they are "faking it" in a sense (women seem to do this more than men). I have met quite a few.... I have a woman friend who is most likely Asperger's...She has the "brow" and her son does too. She has 2 autistic brothers and she is completely internally referent. I have learned it is best not to tell people your suspicions because... there is a "stigma" attached to these labels....
Why I am starting to see signs of Asperger's in myself:
Facial and body expressions: I have the basic expressions down...but just recently realized why I can not tell if a woman is interested in me or horrified by me. Dyslexic ADHD and Aspergers...I am a strange (and possibly a bit rare) hybrid.
Finally makes sense why I "connect" with ADDers and Aspies. I only feel truly comfortable around them. ( I also have powerful connections with animals and babies)
I have an intense and long lasting hyperfocus....that is not common with ADHD...
Explanations*:
I have a model of internal reference that predicts certain things about who is a "culture processor" and who is not. ADHD is an ok 1 on 1 processor (person to person) and does not join groups (process broader culture). Asperger's is similar but has a different cause.
With Asperger's the "non-expression" of front end processing/understanding of facial/body expression causes internal reference.
With ADHD it is "storage of culture" due to the same thing that is responsible for dyslexia (lack of storage of abstractions in a hierarchical cognitive structure)
Humans have two main storage/processing systems (In my models) Hierarchical Mind and Contextual Mind
Contextual Mind is where experience is processed and stored. All things are tagged with a sense (in memory...it is most often smell) Everything stored in CM is from "concrete" real world experience or internally generated models of the "way things" work. Everything has an experiential context
Hierarchical Mind stores non-experiential abstractions, iconic memory, patterns and catagories.
In Asperger's Internal Reference is caused by the friont end so there is a vast array of options...the same as in Neurotypicals (I call them externally referents) but with internal reference
ADHD has internal reference created by this lack of storage of culture itself.
So... ADHD and Aspergers are actually very similar in some ways and very different in others.
ADHD has a very difficult time with linear or hierarchical patterns, prioritization and strategy...most Aspies do not.
The cool thing is...that when you don't store culture....you store lots of other things...either in Context or Hierarchy.
Most ADDers are horrible at chess (unless they have a hyperfocus on it) because chess is a great game of hierarchical processing (until you get really good then context takes over) Aspie friends seem to very good at chess and numbers...I do not.
Anyway... thought it was about time to connect with the other side of my genetic self. Hence I joined this board.
Any other hybrids out there?
Cory
P.S. You can see that the Mona Lisa is an Aspie...can you not?
Leonardo...has the facial signs of both ADHD and Asperger's...why would one of his best paintings be of anyone other than a fellow "cognitive type"
25 Jun 2005, 9:20 pm
Fogman
Veteran
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,986
Location: Frå Nord Dakota til Vermont
25 Jun 2005, 10:17 pm
25 Jun 2005, 10:34 pm
26 Jun 2005, 12:02 am
You got me in one. Me, Social stuff= 
I'm known as very bubbly, confident, outgoing, but I create this persona/mask/cocoon to protect my inner fragile self, because of my incredible sensitivity. I don't have the physical attributes, but they do exist, I've seen it in a 4 yr old autist at my church.
26 Jun 2005, 1:10 am
26 Jun 2005, 3:30 am
I feel AS and ADD are separate. They use to
peddle ADD as a way of making med's money!
It has been diagnosed less often lately, but now
they must find new revenue by co-morbiding
it into aspergers'? Hmmmmm? Ooooh! how
Convient$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
LOL!... I agree on the "comorbid thing" and pharm industry making money...I am cynical as hell about the pharma industry...
the switch happened before they were making tons of money on ADD (1973...or so). No reason to worry there. ADD and Asperger's can "co-exist" in one person...different causes.
Comorbid...is not comorbid when they are not disorders...but orders of a different type
pharms are ok when they help...but I agree with the $$$$$$... I personally am a wobbly
www.iww.org
in my models I am IR+CM+... the book is on its way...and the pharma industry will not be pleased (that is if it gets any press...I am not sure it will at all)... prolly got some of them loitering around here like they do the ADD boards...danged easy to pick out too
26 Jun 2005, 10:04 am
BlackLiger
Veteran
Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,525
Location: My Posh Leather Chair. England.
26 Jun 2005, 12:31 pm
26 Jun 2005, 8:36 pm
Lack of age attachment
Gender role patterning that is androgynous (tomboys and "nice guy" men)
Social Questioning
Inability to deal with group situations
Inability to display or understand signs of status
Reliance on self
fragile ego structure.
Hello, and welcome to me. 
27 Jun 2005, 4:10 am
Hard to say.... What do you mean exactly by "the brow". Do any of us who have pictures posted in the picture thread have "the brow".
It's interesting that you progression of diagnoses is the reverse of what typically happens. What follows is the short version of my child hood as seen through the eyes of doctors whom I saw, none of which seemed to be able to come to any consensus of what was wrong with me.
For me at least, all my visits to shrinks came when I was in grade school.
Oct. 1985 - Labeled as emotionally and behaviorly disturbed, I had to see counslers each week.
May 1988 - Recommended for special education, Some quotes from a school evaluation
--Developmental milestones were delayed in the area(s) of:
- Language
The child exhibits a history of agressive social behaviors
The child exhibits a history of limited contact with like aged peers
Aug. 1988 - Diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression
Sep. 1990 - I become one of the earlier members of the "ADHD fad of the 90's"
My parents were so happy with that DX that they never bothered to take me back for anymore testing regardless of how bizzare my behavior got.
Then last summer I heard of AS and everything fell into place for me. Even then my parents refused to believe I had anything but ADHD. It wasn't until I confronted them and forced them to answer critical questions relating to my early childhood that I finally had a clear picture of how I was as a child and they finally came to understand that I had this.
Again... What is "the brow"
And welcome to WP.
27 Jun 2005, 12:47 pm
Scoots5012
The reason the diagnosis is so difficult is:
1. Psychology is very young. It is in the simple descriptive stage.
A patient comes in with a hard time breathing. The doctor is of the "asthma school" of thought. After listening to the breathing patterns and looking at the age of the patient... the doctor decide what kind of asthma the patient has.
The doctor does not ask the patient questions that are not related to the idea that it could be something other than asthma
The patient dies a year later from Lymphangioleiomyomatosis.
This is discovered by the "Lung cancer" school of thought and the "Emphysema" (before, this read ephesians...spell check ) school of thought which then use this case to "prove" that the Asthma school of thought is wrong.
This is where psychology and cognitive science find themselves today.
2. The main similarity between Dyslectic ADHD and Aspergers is the lack of culture processing -> This comes across as "impulsivity"
Impulsivity is a "catch all" phrase that means not following socially accepted norms (Internal Reference)
Turn impulsivity on its head and what you have is: Lack of limitations enforced by culture.
Children who are amazingly creative or elaborate...and do not fit the "mold" of what children their age are doing.
a) Language delay:
Language delay is common in both Dyslectic ADHD and Asperger's but it is not absolutely so. Language is pushed by culture and is functional.
Dyslectic ADHD and Aspergers use language as primarily informational.
Neurotypicals (ER) Use "small talk". Small talk is *near* meaningless language that ER (Neurotypicals) use to get close enough to read: face, vocal intonation and stance. This is then gestalted into role and position of the two individuals. Language is used to help with this process. (In Thailand..."ayu tao rai?" (how old are you?) is a very important question since status (within a social group or class) is primarily based on age..twins even have big brother/sister and little brother/sister terms)
b) Advanced intellectual capability in young children: When you do not process culture...you process other things.
Hyperfocus in Nuerotypicals (ER) is how they pick up social cues. Unhooked it becomes plain hyperfocus in ADHD and AS.
This is what being a "geek" is...non social hyperfocus. With Dyslectic ADHD the hyper focus is short but powerful in AS it can be very determined and long lasting (through its duration it is powerful)
(CM) Contextual hyperfocus does differ from (HM) hierarchical hyperfocus. In AS the majority has HM (HM is a mix of CM and HM). In Dyslectic ADHD it is CM+.
Most Aspies will become interested in non cultural abstractions (time, numbers, hierarchical patterns, iconic representation)
Physics, Math and Chess are examples of things that follow the HM abstraction path. No culture to process in HM...lets process other things. So.... Neurotypicals have the HM to do those things...but use it for culture.
Dyslectic ADHD does not have full HM. (In fact it is almost absent down to the more primitive structures).
Artistic expression and sensory stimuli become very important for Dyslectic ADHD. Projects are started and rarely finished. Solutions created tend to be powerful and novel. Result...contextual problem solvers. Everything is stored in context.
The world is a big context.
3. Functional differences are not understood. They are asking the "what?" but very few people ask the "why?". Since we are "disordered" Aspies and ADDers need to be ignored in their results because we do not "share reality" with the Neurotypical researchers...funny thing is...culture is a grand illusion. Internally referent people are MUCH closer to the truth because we do not have to process culture. Why do you think it is Aspie's and ADDers that change the world?
An aside:
Human culture...drivers wanted! Aspies and ADDers share the driving responsibilities for human culture. We cannot sit in the back of the bus (the culture) because then we are not in the drivers seat.
Narcissists (ER+) with the help of sociopaths (HM+) "keep the order" in the back of the bus (ER). Unfortunately...we (CM+ and IR+) get stuck with them as task partners (They are riddled throughout our families...the chances that an ADDer or Aspie has an NPD partner are very high...and the sociopaths use us (IR+ and CM+) for scapegoats and easy prey)
The main reason we have such difficulty is not our "disorder" (not a disorder! a functional cognitive type) but the people in our lives who follow the ER+ (NPD) or HM+ (Sociopath) patterns. We get bullied a lot in either very subvert ways or very overt ways.
Cognitive rights now!
Scoots5012 and Fogman
"The Brow"... I don't know why I gave it this name. I did not realize I had it until I noticed the pattern amongst people that are "Internally Referent" who do not show signs of dyslexia (ADD), They have the ability to follow linear time and tell left from right without a strategy. (At this point I have only seen ADHD people and AS people as true internal referents).
The simple indicator I have see is a "dent or depression" where the forehead meets the top of the nose. It has a very clear shape to it. It gives the impression that the forehead is larger. Look at the self portrait of Leonardo Da Vinci and you will see it. Eyes are set further back.
I am hoping to get some kind of open source face recognition code and turn it into a statistical analysis tool. Right now all I have is the "context" (It will stay as that for quite a while...any of you fellow geeks up for the task?)
Yes...most of the pictures on here show "the brow"...I need to get a better word for that! The brow must be present with Internal Reference in order to be considered IR+. (ie. I can not tell just by looking at faces or pictures)
There are other idiosyncrasies as well...body movements. Watch people in groups...the form an odd ballet of "synchronizing" stance body and facial movement. AS does not do this and ADHD just does it wrong I am all over the place (cycling between ADHD and Aspie...mostly Aspie though...)
In my orthography I use the acronym IR for internal reference.
Autism spectrum = IR+
Simple IR+ continuum
IR+<----------+------------>IR
LFA...........HFA...........ADHD
Opposed to:
ER = Neroutypical (Externally Referenced, culture processor), ER+ (NPD) and HM+ (Sociopath)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SINsister
*blush* (checked out your myspace profile *blush*...reminded me I need to finish setting up mine) *blush*
Lots of "brows" in your friends list... the "dent" at the top of the nose...do you see it too?
BlackLiger
I tremble in the very presence of your roar.... I will add you on...or you can add me on. I can be "forgetful"
pizzaboss
Thanks for the welcome. I can see my face in the mirror (I just can't recognize it)...so it is ok for you to welcome me
Ghosthunter
Comorbidly yours...Would a shrink call two disordered people in his office "comorbids"?
Soma
Bjork seems Internally Referent with a "brow". I adore her music...I think she might be an AS/ADHD (IR+CM+) hybrid. I wonder...
Sarcastic_Name
It is a strange world...when you are a "hybrid". I find the ADD dominates in social situations... but I get the long lasting Aspie hyperfocus...I like my mix
Last edited by Chain on 27 Jun 2005, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fogman
Veteran
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,986
Location: Frå Nord Dakota til Vermont
27 Jun 2005, 3:33 pm
Scoots5012 and Fogman
"The Brow"... I don't know why I gave it this name. I did not realize I had it until I noticed the pattern amongst people that are "Internally Referent" who do not show signs of dyslexia (ADD), They have the ability to follow linear time and tell left from right without a strategy. (At this point I have only seen ADHD people and AS people as true internal referents).
The simple indicator I have see is a "dent or depression" where the forehead meets the top of the nose. It has a very clear shape to it. It gives the impression that the forehead is larger. Look at the self portrait of Leonardo Da Vinci and you will see it. Eyes are set further back.
I am hoping to get some kind of open source face recognition code and turn it into a statistical analysis tool. Right now all I have is the "context" (It will stay as that for quite a while...any of you fellow geeks up for the task?)
Yes...most of the pictures on here show "the brow"...I need to get a better word for that! The brow must be present with Internal Reference in order to be considered IR+. (ie. I can not tell just by looking at faces or pictures)
I realise that there is relatively little data on this, but I remember an Article in Scientific American, (from 1998, I believe, but I am not sure) that poited out that amongst other things that people who have LFA have a prepoderance of squared off earlobes, that being said, I have no Idea as to how far this research has been put into physical traits common amongst people on the spectrum. --And I would be intersted in seeing what types of debates this might bring to the research community.
