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Making it Better: The future of WP

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smudge
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19 Aug 2020, 6:09 pm

Quote:
The mod guidelines specifically say we shouldn’t do that because it might be embarrassing to users to have it publicly stated that they broke the rules. I personally think your approach would be better.

One half-solution I use is to avoid naming names, but just leave a comment saying something like “personal attacks are against WP rules, please keep it civil”. That way nobody is singled out but hopefully other users feel acknowledged.


I like this approach that you and envirozentinel use.

Quote:
On “why aren’t the mods participating more in this thread”: I can only speak for myself personally, but large sections of the thread have frankly been unpleasant, with personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) piling up on specific users. In particular, early on it was insinuated that certain users receive preferential treatment because moderators like them. I was concerned that intervening would make the situation worse and reinforce the idea that those users were being protected, so I took the easy route and didn’t do anything, telling myself I was letting the community have their say. I have no idea if that was the right decision... probably not.


Hence why I have hardly responded. Constantly implying "Some people" and repeatedly specifying their actions (I.e. Mine) instead of talking to me about it first and actually asking ME what my intentions were, it's been a massive slagging off match in this thread. I get the implied includes me. A few of the people here have done it repetitively and have not stopped going on about it. I name names instead of making digs at people because I'm straight forward and prefer to address the issue then and there, not make snooty digs or dismiss people. Or f*cking list names of the entire forum except the users they don't like. "Some people", and being specific on their actions to imply its them, and complaining about them instead of assuming that maybe they aren't who they make them out to be. Honestly you think that's more tactful? If I have an issue with whoever, I name them OR I TALK TO THEM first. Fnord is honestly not the worst person here. At least he can take crap spoken about him.

I tried to say it earlier in this thread, but my post was deleted. I'm sick of a few users making digs at me or dismissing me. "Mob mentality", how ridiculous an idea. Your dismissiveness is cowardly and you are so not above me, I can guarantee you that.

That is all.


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Amity
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19 Aug 2020, 6:10 pm

For what it's worth Walrus, you've been open to feedback, which is a really good quality in a person and I know for certain that I have seen you make changes for the better. :D


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19 Aug 2020, 6:16 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
magz wrote:
I find it generally an issue of transparency, including the autumn thing: after offensive posts get removed, you sometimes have no clue what really happened and why some actions were taken.

Some time ago, there was a poster who wrote a mix of very supportive posts to some users and merciless personal attacks to other users. The personal attacks were routinely removed, so after that person finally got banned, many regular users couldn't get why.

Which gives me an idea: how about leaving visible track of mod operations? Instead of removing posts, how about editing them into something like this:
Quote:
Content removed by a moderator (mod name). Reason: personal attack.

That may add to transparency and remove some confusion about further actions.

The mod guidelines specifically say we shouldn’t do that because it might be embarrassing to users to have it publicly stated that they broke the rules. I personally think your approach would be better.

One half-solution I use is to avoid naming names, but just leave a comment saying something like “personal attacks are against WP rules, please keep it civil”. That way nobody is singled out but hopefully other users feel acknowledged.

On “why aren’t the mods participating more in this thread”: I can only speak for myself personally, but large sections of the thread have frankly been unpleasant, with personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) piling up on specific users. In particular, early on it was insinuated that certain users receive preferential treatment because moderators like them. I was concerned that intervening would make the situation worse and reinforce the idea that those users were being protected, so I took the easy route and didn’t do anything, telling myself I was letting the community have their say. I have no idea if that was the right decision... probably not.

For my part: I usually only really watch PPR unless something comes up in Mod Attention. I don’t often get PMs from users asking me to do anything anywhere else. I literally have no idea how things had supposedly got in places like Random and The Haven. I did check News in March and realised that a couple of users were basically using it like PPR, so I started checking there more often and gradually got it under control - although the steps I took were not always popular.

The s**t that people have been posting that was said to Sly - I honestly hadn’t seen any of that. It’s obviously unacceptable and the mangy dog thing should have resulted in a ban. My moderation style isn’t to check to report queue, which B19 has always been very good at. I liked Boo, and Ferris has serious strengths, but B19 did so much of the donkey work that makes this site usable. While there’s only 3.5 (or perhaps 3 and two halves) of us around, perhaps that style isn’t suitable, I need to be everywhere rather than just keeping one corner relatively tidy.

(Having said that, I really don’t want to be everywhere - I’d rather be nowhere at all! But at the end of the day as long as I’m a mod here and people are bullying each other then I’m partially responsible even if I don’t know it)


My problem with that is whenever I see that, I never know it has applied to me because I never think I have done a personal attack unless I have called someone stupid or told them they are "sh*t for brains or have told them "what a dumb line of thinking you have there or that is the stupidest thing ever."


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19 Aug 2020, 6:20 pm

smudge wrote:
Quote:
The mod guidelines specifically say we shouldn’t do that because it might be embarrassing to users to have it publicly stated that they broke the rules. I personally think your approach would be better.

One half-solution I use is to avoid naming names, but just leave a comment saying something like “personal attacks are against WP rules, please keep it civil”. That way nobody is singled out but hopefully other users feel acknowledged.


I like this approach that you and envirozentinel use.

Quote:
On “why aren’t the mods participating more in this thread”: I can only speak for myself personally, but large sections of the thread have frankly been unpleasant, with personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) piling up on specific users. In particular, early on it was insinuated that certain users receive preferential treatment because moderators like them. I was concerned that intervening would make the situation worse and reinforce the idea that those users were being protected, so I took the easy route and didn’t do anything, telling myself I was letting the community have their say. I have no idea if that was the right decision... probably not.


Hence why I have hardly responded. Constantly implying "Some people" and repeatedly specifying their actions (I.e. Mine) instead of talking to me about it first and actually asking ME what my intentions were, it's been a massive slagging off match in this thread. I get the implied includes me. A few of the people here have done it repetitively and have not stopped going on about it. I name names instead of making digs at people because I'm straight forward and prefer to address the issue then and there, not make snooty digs or dismiss people. Or f*cking list names of the entire forum except the users they don't like. "Some people", and being specific on their actions to imply its them, and complaining about them instead of assuming that maybe they aren't who they make them out to be. Honestly you think that's more tactful? If I have an issue with whoever, I name them OR I TALK TO THEM first. Fnord is honestly not the worst person here. At least he can take crap spoken about him.

I tried to say it earlier in this thread, but my post was deleted. I'm sick of a few users making digs at me or dismissing me. "Mob mentality", how ridiculous an idea. Your dismissiveness is cowardly and you are so not above me, I can guarantee you that.

That is all.


Problem with naming names is people will still feel bullied or harassed when someone talks about them openly in a thread or something. :roll:

I made that mistake once on another forum and was informed by the admin to not start threads naming names because it makes people feel bullied and harassed. But yet on here I have often seen complaints about people talking about behaviors users do without naming names and members still feel bullied or harassed or threatened or see it as passive aggressive.

You can't win.


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Fnord
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19 Aug 2020, 6:26 pm

Ferris wrote:
... I was a broken man and I overreacted.
I kinda figured as much, which Is why I meant it when I said, "All is forgiven".

:D




Edited by member to correct mis-quote.



Last edited by Fnord on 19 Aug 2020, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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19 Aug 2020, 6:33 pm

I’d rather have someone say something to my face than to talk about me behind my back.



Oh_no_its_Ferris
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19 Aug 2020, 6:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
Ferris wrote:
... I was a broken man and I overreacted.
I kinda figured as much, which Is why I meant it when I said, "All is forgiven".

:D


I fixed the quote for you :D

I believed you dude and I appreciate it.


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smudge
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19 Aug 2020, 6:40 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I’d rather have someone say something to my face than to talk about me behind my back.


Exactly.


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Fnord
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19 Aug 2020, 7:18 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Ferris wrote:
... I was a broken man and I overreacted.
I kinda figured as much, which Is why I meant it when I said, "All is forgiven".
I fixed the quote for you. I believed you dude and I appreciate it.
No worries, mate!  Thanks for the fix!



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19 Aug 2020, 7:22 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
a broken man

On a Halifax pier?


The last of Barrett's privateers.


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19 Aug 2020, 7:43 pm

— and created millennial impatience.

www.salon.com/2014/01/04/how_baby_boome ... mpatience/

I think there may be some truth to this but I don't know about the millennials and other gen x'er but I as an x'er wish to say this. And, I believe this is true for me. Let's say I desire something or wish to accomplish something. Here is the problem for me at least. How do I assess what the realistic expectations are exactly that I should have? My parents (boomers), the schools and other boomer adults as I was growing up never, ever taught me this. I've been told in my past that I have unrealistic expectations especially the work place. But, again what are the realistic expectations people of various backgrounds and age brackets should have? Where is the barometer to get an accurate reading?

What are the realistic expectations that high school graduates should have in 2020?

What are the realistic expectations that college graduates should have in 2020?

When I graduated High School back in 1998 and started college in IT exactly what realistic expectations should have I had of my college and of myself going? Start at the bottom? What bottom? What exactly was I expected to do exactly before going to college, while I was going to college and after I graduated?

I don't know about others but if I had unrealistic expectations that was because I wasn't told what they were or if they were implied I missed it since the boomer adults in my life including my parents, educators and others told me the same horse crap which was I can do anything I set my mind to. And, even expecting others to even tell you what these realistic expectations were well unrealistic expectations. The only way I could win was doing what I did and going to China.

Now, what are the realistic expectations that I have should have of myself and of others in the world as a 41 year old grown, autistic man?

Those who complain that others including millennials that have unrealistic unexpectations never can or wish to tell others what those realistic expectations are when called to task.

What I wish is for those on here who were successful in the workplace including Fnord, conservatives and personal responsibility advocates out in real life would lay out all the cards on the table. No overly simplistic explanations that I don't grasp at all. Just lay out both the bigger picture and details. Explain everything including why we're all told to be ourselves when it is not true in the slightest.

Lay it all out! That's one thing that would make WP better for myself and the rest of those who've had difficulties.



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19 Aug 2020, 7:54 pm

As long as students refuse to accept the truth of what I teach, they will never understand the material.



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19 Aug 2020, 8:25 pm

Fnord wrote:
As long as students refuse to accept the truth of what I teach, they will never understand the material.


We as the students don't understand what you teach so if we don't even understand what you're teaching it is impossible for us to accept the truth of what you teach.

It seems like you're ducking and dodging, bobbing and weaving and doing everything to avoid giving answers.

Page 7 of 50 Rules Kids Won't Learn in School: Real-World Antidotes to Feel-Good Education by Charlie Sykes says "...Reality will bite hard for a generation that has been raised with delusions of specialiness and unrealistic expectations. ..."

Other conservatives and personal responsibility advocates say the same thing or something similar.

I've spoken to them online and when asked the same question "What are the realistic expectations of the workplace we all should have at various stages of our lives including but not limited to high school graduates and college graduates" they respond in the same way as you do Fnord. Either ducking or dodging or ignoring the question. Some will curse me out. But, my question still stands. What are the realistic expectations of the workplace we all should have at various stages of our lives including but not limited to high school graduates and college graduates?

Can you lay out all the cards on the table please?



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19 Aug 2020, 9:30 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
As long as students refuse to accept the truth of what I teach, they will never understand the material.


We as the students don't understand what you teach so if we don't even understand what you're teaching it is impossible for us to accept the truth of what you teach.

It seems like you're ducking and dodging, bobbing and weaving and doing everything to avoid giving answers.

Page 7 of 50 Rules Kids Won't Learn in School: Real-World Antidotes to Feel-Good Education by Charlie Sykes says "...Reality will bite hard for a generation that has been raised with delusions of specialiness and unrealistic expectations. ..."

Other conservatives and personal responsibility advocates say the same thing or something similar.

I've spoken to them online and when asked the same question "What are the realistic expectations of the workplace we all should have at various stages of our lives including but not limited to high school graduates and college graduates" they respond in the same way as you do Fnord. Either ducking or dodging or ignoring the question. Some will curse me out. But, my question still stands. What are the realistic expectations of the workplace we all should have at various stages of our lives including but not limited to high school graduates and college graduates?

Can you lay out all the cards on the table please?

You may want to create a thread in an appropriate area of the site, as this does not appear related to the topic under discussion...

It may also be worth outlining in that thread what YOUR expectations are\were, so people can help you to understand the "problem" using your own expectations as a guide, in order to be able to explain their answers in terms most appropriate to your situation.



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20 Aug 2020, 12:15 am

Temeraire wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
magz wrote:
Temeraire wrote:
Er, can we get back to business please children?

This thread has been hijacked enough for your play.

I did ask a question for the mods earlier if I can find it among this tomfoolery.

This one?
Temeraire wrote:
I also believe transparency is the way forward.

In order to keep everyone safe a new way of working is required.

One which considers the members and mods.

What are the rules, regulations or guidelines used by a mod for their own behaviour and way of working with others?

If there are none then why?

Boundaries keep us all safe and thus all need boundaries.

Page 66. Not answered.



Yes there is a set of guidelines for mods and if you wish, I'll take a closer look tomorrow and post a few but it's getting a bit late here and have some work to do tomorrow for most of the day.

Alex now has the list of new mods and he responded very quickly to Walrus. Also, I just heard that an ex mod here with Admin powers might be returning! That would be great as WP had no big hiccups at that time.


Thank you, I am sure I am not the only one who would like to read the guidelines.

Some good news too.

I look forward to seeing both.




I doubt i'll get a chance today but will attend to the guidelines tomorrow. I know by then there'll probably be another 20 pages or so on this thread to catch up with...


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magz
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20 Aug 2020, 2:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
One half-solution I use is to avoid naming names, but just leave a comment saying something like “personal attacks are against WP rules, please keep it civil”. That way nobody is singled out but hopefully other users feel acknowledged.

XFG often did something like this and it worked wonderfully.
The only disadvantage is: for best effects, it has to be done quickly, in real time. Then, the poster who crosses the line, gets a chance to correct their behavior without being shamed or getting defensive.


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