PPR rules

Page 2 of 6 [ 88 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

bee33
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,862

27 Sep 2010, 2:58 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

No moderation is the worst idea I've ever heard. As far as I'm concerned, the rules stickied at the top of PPR should be enforced fully by the moderators, no matter what "unwritten rules" one anarchist member has decided to make up :roll:

I thought these discussions were a good faith attempt to revise how the PPR forum is conducted and moderated, not a means for you to prove that you are right and those who disagree with you are wrong.

These discussions result from a problem that has occurred. How do we prevent such problems from cropping up again? It won't happen by maintaining the status quo.

When you go so far as to say that hate speech, cannot be identified, and that you have proven as much, you lose all credibility.

Sallamandrina
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,590

27 Sep 2010, 3:13 pm

One of the reasons I started this thread was that only 36 people voted in the PPR one - and we have a lot more active members around who might have something interesting to say -, plus the discussion in the .net became too personal, revolving around specific posters, their background and even medical history. So I would appreciate if people don't use it like that.

It would me more helpful if some grey areas of what civilised discussion means would be made clear for everybody. For instance "you're an idiot" it's quite obviously a personal attack, while "your opinion is ignorant" seems safe enough. But what about "since you refuse to answer my question I decide you're a terrorism sympathiser"? Is this a personal attack or just someone treating logic like a common whore? What about veiled threats like "you have no idea how low I could go (against you), but I won't this time"? How do these things contribute to the debate?

Another thing that confuses me: I thought a Politics and Philosophy forum is a place to express/discuss opinions. I'm being told people also want to discuss their feelings (isn't the Haven for that?). I don't see feelings as being central in a solid political or philosophical position, but if they are, shouldn't a distinction be made? Wouldn't it be expected to say "I feel that..." or "it makes me feel..." instead of them being presented as facts or opinions?

_________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)

Sallamandrina
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,590

27 Sep 2010, 3:22 pm

bee33 wrote:

These discussions result from a problem that has occurred. How do we prevent such problems from cropping up again? It won't happen by maintaining the status quo.

Thanks, bee, that was I was looking for - more clear guidelines to avoid such situations.

_________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)

BigK
Velociraptor

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

27 Sep 2010, 4:23 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

Who says they aren't? Like I pointed out, "hate speech" doesn't actually mean anything and the decisions regarding what is and isn't allowed are almost completely at the discretion of the moderators, who generally choose to allow PPR to function semi-autonomously at the moment. They've been called upon to examine some of the alleged "hates speech" in the forum and decided that no action was required, ipso facto the reported posts did not constitute hate speech in the eyes of the forum moderators. Have you already forgotten the lessons that AG and I imparted in the WP.net thread?

Secondly, I'm not an anarchist (I'm a minarchist libertarian, there is a difference) and I didn't just make up the proposed guidelines; they were drawn from my not inconsiderable personal experience within PPR, and as can be seen from the low number of votes for "other rule not specified", they seem to accurately reflect the etiquette of the forum. Also, read my post again, since I clearly address this rumored "no moderation" rule and proved it's fallacy.

I don't think that you can draw many conclusions from that poll. I for one didn't even vote in it. It seems a pointless poll if it is not going to be multi-select.
Even if the other options were nonsense people could always vote 'Keep it civil'.

Any "Other rule not listed (explain in post)" option just invites a roasting from the pure free-speechers.

_________________
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

"How can it not know what it is?"

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

27 Sep 2010, 4:28 pm

Before I quit my job as a moderator, I had talked with various members about PPR, and how it seemed the TOS didn't seem to give enough guidance to those who post there. The current stickies the various members did not feel were that effective, either. Some of those members were regulars, some were not. Dox47 was the person who cared enough to offer to try to write some more clear rules, and he had my encouragement to do so. Whatever he writes will go through a currently active moderator, and probably the whole team. What gets written in threads like this one will probably be considered in the review process, as well. I just want to be clear he isn't being power hungry taking that on; sure, he wants to protect a board he cares a lot about, but he does listen to contrasting opinions even when he is fighting them. If there are members who care about the direction the PPR board takes, then I recommend construction suggestions for the guidelines. Dox will see them, and the moderators will see them, and if they have merit they'll end up in the guidelines.

Based on this and other threads on the topic, I guess figuring what is hate speech during debate on distasteful topics might be an important one to tackle. Maybe examples that are NOT part of a current debate?

(PS - Dox, I didn't vote in the poll because I didn't know how to choose one answer from a list where most seemed like good suggestions)

_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

BigK
Velociraptor

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

27 Sep 2010, 4:59 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Based on this and other threads on the topic, I guess figuring what is hate speech during debate on distasteful topics might be an important one to tackle. Maybe examples that are NOT part of a current debate?

If we can't agree on the current one then we are not going to agree on anything.

MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

27 Sep 2010, 5:33 pm

Sallamandrina wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Seems a bit illogical to post this in the general forum when the discussion is already there in the PPR forum.

It seems to me that only people who frequent the forum would care whether the rules there are different. Posting here only increases the chances of getting responses from those who don't go there, and likely don't really care what happens there.

Kind of like canvasing the streets outside a private club asking what people think of the rules inside the club. Isn't it?

Private club you say? That's interesting as some of the PPR regulars are very adamant that it's not.

I only chose General Discussion seeking for more diverse experiences and opinions - many people only come here or just check the latest topics. There's another discussion in the .net part of the forum that looks like it will go on forever - more varied input might help find a balance and even allow PPR newbies to understand how the place works.

You're right, and so are they. It's not really a private club. At least, it's not supposed to be, and everybody there knows it. But there are quite a lot of users here who won't even go there (me included for the most part), because it can be so contentious. What I meant is that there are those who DO go there (and are thus probably answering the thread posted there), and those who don't, and probably don't really care much what happens there.

Anyway, the whole point I made seems to be proving "moot" considering some of the responses this thread is getting, soooo.....

Carry on!

_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...

bee33
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,862

27 Sep 2010, 5:36 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Dox47 was the person who cared enough to offer to try to write some more clear rules, and he had my encouragement to do so.

I'm very confused by this. It seems to me that Dox is interested in his agenda and in proving others wrong, not in collecting opinions on rules that others can agree on.

DW_a_mom wrote:

(PS - Dox, I didn't vote in the poll because I didn't know how to choose one answer from a list where most seemed like good suggestions)

BigK wrote:

That poll made no sense to me. I have no idea what each of the options is meant to refer to.

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

27 Sep 2010, 7:10 pm

bee33 wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Dox47 was the person who cared enough to offer to try to write some more clear rules, and he had my encouragement to do so.

I'm very confused by this. It seems to me that Dox is interested in his agenda and in proving others wrong, not in collecting opinions on rules that others can agree on.

As persuasive as he can be, he isn't going to get the rules stickied by a moderator if they seem to only serve his agenda, and not improve the operation of the board. Everyone may have their own opinion based on if he can accomplish the goal, which is to write rules that will improve the operation of the board, but it isn't fair to reach a conclusion on that until a draft has been completed. While I've teased Dox enough over time about his ego, I think he can set it aside when he really, really wants to. If you think an item is self-serving or based on a personal agenda, say so, and give a constructive alternative. I've posted in the threads what I would add, and what I would delete. The reasons the threads are there is for others to do the same. Then, sure, he'll apply his judgment to it, and devise a draft. And then a moderator will add their judgment to that. There is no dictatorship here; just someone who saw a need and offered to try and fill it. Does that serve a goal for him? Maybe; volunteering often serves more than one end. But that doesn't mean it won't be a worthy effort.

_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,689
Location: Northern California

27 Sep 2010, 7:12 pm

BigK wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

If we can't agree on the current one then we are not going to agree on anything.

I guess I'm thinking that one is so contentious at the moment, it might be safer to start with examples everyone CAN agree on. Get to the contentious one last. By then, the other examples might have actually have propelled a conclusion.

_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).

hyperlexian
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 22,023
Location: with bucephalus

27 Sep 2010, 8:08 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

we are casting our votes... here. we have spoken about what we want... here.

the "results" of the poll to date have been posted, but the "results" have excluded all dissenting opinions.

therefore, this thread will hopefully be a place where we can have a wide variety of opinions... all of which can be included in the final analysis. there is already a wider variety of opinions here, perhaps because of the location.

there is an important message in the idea of posting this thread here, as opposed to posting another thread in PPR... some WP members have self-excluded themselves from PPR forum because of the more extreme racist, inflammatory or anti-muslim views (for example). i would like PPR to be a place for all WP members to be able to express their opinions safely (without hate speech spoken against them).

DW_a_mom wrote:

as for what could define hate speech... one member stated that there was a:

Quote:

... pro-zionist who was rejoicing while I was being under the I."D".F's shells shower?

to me, verbally rejoicing about a bombing while a WP member is in danger? that is hate speech.

i can dig up more examples of hate speech if they would serve any purpose... ?

_________________
on a break, so if you need assistance please contact another moderator from this list:
viewtopic.php?t=391105

BigK
Velociraptor

Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 400

28 Sep 2010, 1:52 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

BigK wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

If we can't agree on the current one then we are not going to agree on anything.

There will be no conclusion unless the mods/site owner impose one.

The options as far as content is concerned are
1. Anything thing goes.
2. Everything does not go.

The site rules suggest that anything does not go. PPR regulars seem to think that it should.

The way I hear it some PPR regulars seem to think that they are exempt from the ToS. So they need rules to prevent noobs from running to the mods.

Dox47's 'rules' seem to be more about Etiquette than content. Not surprising as I am sure that he thinks any content should be allowed.

So, are we allowed to call for the annihilation of a race or religious group? To create an atmosphere where members of that group are unlikely to feel welcome?

The PPR regulars set the tone and anyone who doesn't like it knows what they can do.
Or would you want it to be more inclusive? I would have thought that a wider variety of opinions would be a good thing on such a board.

Callista
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 43
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

28 Sep 2010, 2:19 am

You have to be able to remove spam, threats, and illegal stuff. And if they really refuse to moderate at all, you can pretty much predict that somebody will eventually post stomach-churning porn all over the place just to annoy other people. No, thanks. Some level of moderation is necessary.

_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

28 Sep 2010, 2:34 am

Callista wrote:

Please look at the actual PPR thread, or even my posts in this thread; at NO time was "no moderation at all" EVER on the table, the OP of this thread misquoted that from the beginning and hasn't corrected it.

_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez

Sallamandrina
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,590

28 Sep 2010, 2:51 am

This is the proposed rule as it was posted "Don't talk about PPR (to the mods)!" - where is the miss-quote?

_________________
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live" (Oscar Wilde)

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

28 Sep 2010, 4:26 am

Sallamandrina wrote:

This is the proposed rule as it was posted "Don't talk about PPR (to the mods)!" - where is the miss-quote?

That's not the same thing as no moderation, and if you read any of the thread you'd have seen the clarification within a few posts. I even posted the clarification itself on the first page of THIS thread, that all that means is to regard the moderators as the last resort in resolving forum disputes, to work things out on your own whenever possible. Hasn't anyone here seen Fight Club?

_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez

Page 2 of 6 [ 88 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Jump to:

PPR rules Post Reply New Topic

PPR rules