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philosopherBoi
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07 Dec 2008, 4:39 pm

Strapples wrote:
now now lets not go to such extremes of a total shut down PhilosopherBoi. Heres what I think we should do. Alex should come to power again, freeze all moderator powers, nominate 20 new candidates, including all of the old, and have us all vote in new moderators or vote old ones back in and we hold such a vote every 2-4 years.

democracy always wins.


As things are right now there is no law governing this realm, and as such drastic measures are need to protect the innocent. Closing Wrong Planet for a short time until legal enforcement would give, Alex both the time he needs to select moderators and to upgrade the system to a newer version. After which I would think it would be best if we work though a democracy as you have suggested because it is clear that checks and balances are needed because do we truly want another lawless time ever again?



makuranososhi
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07 Dec 2008, 5:40 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Strapples wrote:
now now lets not go to such extremes of a total shut down PhilosopherBoi. Heres what I think we should do. Alex should come to power again, freeze all moderator powers, nominate 20 new candidates, including all of the old, and have us all vote in new moderators or vote old ones back in and we hold such a vote every 2-4 years.

democracy always wins.


As things are right now there is no law governing this realm, and as such drastic measures are need to protect the innocent. Closing Wrong Planet for a short time until legal enforcement would give, Alex both the time he needs to select moderators and to upgrade the system to a newer version. After which I would think it would be best if we work though a democracy as you have suggested because it is clear that checks and balances are needed because do we truly want another lawless time ever again?


*sigh* This is melodramatic. There are moderators in place, who responded to you - just because it wasn't the answer you wanted doesn't make this a 'lawless' place... and as as a privately owned enterprise, it is allowed to be operated in the manner desired provided that no actual laws are broken. None have. While I may not agree with the manner in which the site is run at times, I respect it, and as a business owner I recognize there are times when the democratic solution is not appropriate.


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philosopherBoi
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07 Dec 2008, 6:57 pm

Yes they did respond that is true however they neglected their duties and poured salt in deep wounds which is not acceptable behavirior for moderators. Because of their neglect to their duties not just the one I dealt with but all of them it does make this realm a lawless area. While wrong planet itself is not quilty of commitng crimes some of its members are, remember harrasment and bulling are against the law here is a sample of a law from where I live.

Quote:
§ 14‑196.3.  Cyberstalking.
(a)       The following definitions apply in this section:
(1)       Electronic communication. – Any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence of any nature, transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, computer, electromagnetic, photoelectric, or photo‑optical system.
(2)       Electronic mail. – The transmission of information or communication by the use of the Internet, a computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a cellular telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic means sent to a person identified by a unique address or address number and received by that person.
(b)       It is unlawful for a person to:
(1)       Use in electronic mail or electronic communication any words or language threatening to inflict bodily harm to any person or to that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent, or physical injury to the property of any person, or for the purpose of extorting money or other things of value from any person.
(2)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another repeatedly, whether or not conversation ensues, for the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing any person.
(3)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another and to knowingly make any false statement concerning death, injury, illness, disfigurement, indecent conduct, or criminal conduct of the person electronically mailed or of any member of the person's family or household with the intent to abuse, annoy, threaten, terrify, harass, or embarrass.
(4)       Knowingly permit an electronic communication device under the person's control to be used for any purpose prohibited by this section.
(c)       Any offense under this section committed by the use of electronic mail or electronic communication may be deemed to have been committed where the electronic mail or electronic communication was originally sent, originally received in this State, or first viewed by any person in this State.
(d)       Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(e)       This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)


Further more Alex does not maininte this site like he should nor does he answer the plight of those who ask for assisatiance so yes inddeed a democratic system would be needed to put checks and balances into place to prevent people from being hurt and those with power from abusing such power.



Dox47
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07 Dec 2008, 7:22 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Yes they did respond that is true however they neglected their duties and poured salt in deep wounds which is not acceptable behavirior for moderators. Because of their neglect to their duties not just the one I dealt with but all of them it does make this realm a lawless area. While wrong planet itself is not quilty of commitng crimes some of its members are, remember harrasment and bulling are against the law here is a sample of a law from where I live.


The moderators do not have a responsibility to protect you from opinions you don't like, no matter how badly your feelings are hurt. Their purpose is to enforce the rules of the board, and the only one breaking the rules was you. What you are asking is that you be treated as some sort of "special case" where the rules don't apply to you and different rules apply to members who interact with you. Needless to say, this is not a reasonable demand, and unlikely to be met. As to your allegations of cyber-stalking, perhaps you should read your own post a little more carefully:

The Law wrote:
§ 14‑196.3.  Cyberstalking.

(e)       This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)


philosopherBoi wrote:
Further more Alex does not maininte this site like he should nor does he answer the plight of those who ask for assisatiance so yes inddeed a democratic system would be needed to put checks and balances into place to prevent people from being hurt and those with power from abusing such power.


"Like he should"? Because he won't protect you from the big bad internet and make exceptions to the rules because you're so downtrodden he doesn't get to decide how best to run his own board? I have my own issues with how the board is run, but people being allowed to disagree with me isn't one them, and I wouldn't presume to dictate to Alex how to run his shop. I might suggest things that I think would make the site run better, but telling him how run his board is a bit presumptuous. Even if he did put some sort of checks in place, they most certainly wouldn't apply to your situation since what you are asking for is a different set of rules than what everyone else has to abide by. No fair minded moderator would agree to that, no matter what sort of oversight they had on them.


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07 Dec 2008, 7:31 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Yes they did respond that is true however they neglected their duties and poured salt in deep wounds which is not acceptable behavirior for moderators. Because of their neglect to their duties not just the one I dealt with but all of them it does make this realm a lawless area. While wrong planet itself is not quilty of commitng crimes some of its members are, remember harrasment and bulling are against the law here is a sample of a law from where I live.

Quote:
§ 14‑196.3.  Cyberstalking.
(a)       The following definitions apply in this section:
(1)       Electronic communication. – Any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence of any nature, transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, computer, electromagnetic, photoelectric, or photo‑optical system.
(2)       Electronic mail. – The transmission of information or communication by the use of the Internet, a computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a cellular telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic means sent to a person identified by a unique address or address number and received by that person.
(b)       It is unlawful for a person to:
(1)       Use in electronic mail or electronic communication any words or language threatening to inflict bodily harm to any person or to that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent, or physical injury to the property of any person, or for the purpose of extorting money or other things of value from any person.
(2)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another repeatedly, whether or not conversation ensues, for the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing any person.
(3)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another and to knowingly make any false statement concerning death, injury, illness, disfigurement, indecent conduct, or criminal conduct of the person electronically mailed or of any member of the person's family or household with the intent to abuse, annoy, threaten, terrify, harass, or embarrass.
(4)       Knowingly permit an electronic communication device under the person's control to be used for any purpose prohibited by this section.
(c)       Any offense under this section committed by the use of electronic mail or electronic communication may be deemed to have been committed where the electronic mail or electronic communication was originally sent, originally received in this State, or first viewed by any person in this State.
(d)       Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(e)       This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)


Further more Alex does not maininte this site like he should nor does he answer the plight of those who ask for assisatiance so yes inddeed a democratic system would be needed to put checks and balances into place to prevent people from being hurt and those with power from abusing such power.


heh same laws here at palatine IL


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Dox47
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07 Dec 2008, 8:08 pm

Strapples wrote:
now now lets not go to such extremes of a total shut down PhilosopherBoi. Heres what I think we should do. Alex should come to power again, freeze all moderator powers, nominate 20 new candidates, including all of the old, and have us all vote in new moderators or vote old ones back in and we hold such a vote every 2-4 years.

democracy always wins.


I like this idea, but make it more like every 3 months with the polls being open for 1 month, and a 3 month membership/500 post minimum to vote. That way moderators couldn't be too abusive because they risk being voted out, and it encourages participation in the site by having a minimum amount necessary in order to vote. The number of mods could also be expanded, so that the power would be more evenly distributed and there would be less pressure on individual mods given the size of this board. I doubt the idea will gain much traction however, as I've been reminded the opinions of the members of this board are irrelevant to it's running.


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07 Dec 2008, 8:19 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
Compassion all around is appropriate here. For example, Fnord is currently experiencing extreme emotional trauma anytime anything reminds him of emos.

I'm not sure what triggered this, but I suspect he might have had a precognition about his next incarnation.

LOL! :lol:
Going for broke, eh?
Nice try, though. :wink:


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Fnord
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07 Dec 2008, 8:23 pm

t0 wrote:
Is this an accurate summary of what's going on here?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Original thread:
Fnord says: Now I understand why you are the way you are, PB.
Sinsbodly says: Fnord didn't violate rules. pB later attacked Fnord which is a violation of the rules.

This thread:
Fnord says: pB's probems are caused by pB.
pB says: Fnord's a troll.
Fnord says: I'm just stating my opinion, not trying to cause harm. Let's be friends.

[ a bunch of stuff about ego ]

Fnord says: I'll still be friends, but if I disagree with an opinion I will still respond with such.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this it? Seems like a lot of drama over nothing.

That's seems to be the way it is to me, too. A lot of needless drama over nothing.

I'm willing to move on ... how about the rest of you?


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messygeek
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07 Dec 2008, 8:27 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Yes they did respond that is true however they neglected their duties and poured salt in deep wounds which is not acceptable behavirior for moderators. Because of their neglect to their duties not just the one I dealt with but all of them it does make this realm a lawless area. While wrong planet itself is not quilty of commitng crimes some of its members are, remember harrasment and bulling are against the law here is a sample of a law from where I live.

Quote:
§ 14‑196.3.  Cyberstalking.
(a)       The following definitions apply in this section:
(1)       Electronic communication. – Any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence of any nature, transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, computer, electromagnetic, photoelectric, or photo‑optical system.
(2)       Electronic mail. – The transmission of information or communication by the use of the Internet, a computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a cellular telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic means sent to a person identified by a unique address or address number and received by that person.
(b)       It is unlawful for a person to:
(1)       Use in electronic mail or electronic communication any words or language threatening to inflict bodily harm to any person or to that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent, or physical injury to the property of any person, or for the purpose of extorting money or other things of value from any person.
(2)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another repeatedly, whether or not conversation ensues, for the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing any person.
(3)       Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another and to knowingly make any false statement concerning death, injury, illness, disfigurement, indecent conduct, or criminal conduct of the person electronically mailed or of any member of the person's family or household with the intent to abuse, annoy, threaten, terrify, harass, or embarrass.
(4)       Knowingly permit an electronic communication device under the person's control to be used for any purpose prohibited by this section.
(c)       Any offense under this section committed by the use of electronic mail or electronic communication may be deemed to have been committed where the electronic mail or electronic communication was originally sent, originally received in this State, or first viewed by any person in this State.
(d)       Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(e)       This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)


Further more Alex does not maininte this site like he should nor does he answer the plight of those who ask for assisatiance so yes inddeed a democratic system would be needed to put checks and balances into place to prevent people from being hurt and those with power from abusing such power.


Then call the police, im sure they will laugh.



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07 Dec 2008, 8:32 pm

Quote:
(e)       This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)

Well ... as long as people stick to the facts, and refrain from making threats and personal insults, there is no case against them.

Conversely, I could probably press the issue under the cited legal code and see a few people get banned.


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Last edited by Fnord on 07 Dec 2008, 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Javid
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07 Dec 2008, 8:35 pm

I agree. We DO need a report post button.


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makuranososhi
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07 Dec 2008, 9:03 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Yes they did respond that is true however they neglected their duties and poured salt in deep wounds which is not acceptable behavirior for moderators. Because of their neglect to their duties not just the one I dealt with but all of them it does make this realm a lawless area. While wrong planet itself is not quilty of commitng crimes some of its members are, remember harrasment and bulling are against the law here is a sample of a law from where I live.

Quote:
§ 14‑196.3. Cyberstalking.
(a) The following definitions apply in this section:
(1) Electronic communication. – Any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence of any nature, transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, computer, electromagnetic, photoelectric, or photo‑optical system.
(2) Electronic mail. – The transmission of information or communication by the use of the Internet, a computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a cellular telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic means sent to a person identified by a unique address or address number and received by that person.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to:
(1) Use in electronic mail or electronic communication any words or language threatening to inflict bodily harm to any person or to that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent, or physical injury to the property of any person, or for the purpose of extorting money or other things of value from any person.
(2) Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another repeatedly, whether or not conversation ensues, for the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing any person.
(3) Electronically mail or electronically communicate to another and to knowingly make any false statement concerning death, injury, illness, disfigurement, indecent conduct, or criminal conduct of the person electronically mailed or of any member of the person's family or household with the intent to abuse, annoy, threaten, terrify, harass, or embarrass.
(4) Knowingly permit an electronic communication device under the person's control to be used for any purpose prohibited by this section.
(c) Any offense under this section committed by the use of electronic mail or electronic communication may be deemed to have been committed where the electronic mail or electronic communication was originally sent, originally received in this State, or first viewed by any person in this State.
(d) Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
(e) This section does not apply to any peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening activity intended to express political views or to provide lawful information to others. This section shall not be construed to impair any constitutionally protected activity, including speech, protest, or assembly. (2000‑125, s. 1; 2000‑140, s. 91.)


Further more Alex does not maininte this site like he should nor does he answer the plight of those who ask for assisatiance so yes inddeed a democratic system would be needed to put checks and balances into place to prevent people from being hurt and those with power from abusing such power.


I am sorry that you hurt; I do not find anything in what was said or in the response given than indicates that less than appropriate action was taken. No stalking took place, no threat was made, no law was broken. There was no repetition, no fraud committed. You felt wronged, which is your right - but I believe you need to step back and realize that Fnord has the right to speak his mind freely, again as long as no laws are broken, just as you are. The site is run according the wishes of management and within the constraints of the law; if you feel it isn't, then you need to pursue legal action. Or you can go elsewhere, as is your right as well, though you could also accept that individuals can and will speak their mind. And while there is a lot of talk about democracy - this isn't one. It's a site owned by an individual, not a commune or government body.

Life is filled with hurt. You can either allow it to rule you, or leave it where it lies and move on. Your choice. But you'll never control it, prevent it, or eliminate it.


M.


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07 Dec 2008, 9:16 pm

Internet rage and logic don't mix. Good luck, though!


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07 Dec 2008, 10:33 pm

I do not think wrongplanet should be closed. It's not fair for those of us who love the support. I also feel the moderators are no doing an adequate job, and can be abusive. Also, I agree about Fnord. he's very arrogant, and every time I see one of his posts you can be bound to see him making om cynical or sarcastic remark. He is always acting as if he is better than everyone else on here.
Alex should be much more active on the forums.



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07 Dec 2008, 10:54 pm

ShadesOfMe wrote:
I do not think wrongplanet should be closed. It's not fair for those of us who love the support. I also feel the moderators are no doing an adequate job, and can be abusive. Also, I agree about Fnord. he's very arrogant, and every time I see one of his posts you can be bound to see him making om cynical or sarcastic remark. He is always acting as if he is better than everyone else on here.
Alex should be much more active on the forums.


Arrogance is not illegal.
Sarcasm is not illegal.
Cynicism is not illegal.
A sense of superiority is not illegal.

If you can find an example of where these have been taken to the point of abuse, please share. In my interactions with Fnord, we may not always agree - in fact, might be polar opposites - but when either of us takes a moment to point out to the other that we're heading out of bounds, the response is positive. And in general, I find Fnord's thoughts to be well reasoned and well written, even if the brusque tone might turn some away. I fail to see why a moderator doing their job under the ToS is being abusive - if you have examples or arguments, I'd be glad to hear them.

Please... Quit expecting Alex to 'save' things; we're all part of this community, and if things stink then -we- need to be responsible partners, not whining for others to do so for us.


M.


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07 Dec 2008, 11:08 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I like this idea, but make it more like every 3 months with the polls being open for 1 month, and a 3 month membership/500 post minimum to vote. That way moderators couldn't be too abusive because they risk being voted out, and it encourages participation in the site by having a minimum amount necessary in order to vote. The number of mods could also be expanded, so that the power would be more evenly distributed and there would be less pressure on individual mods given the size of this board. I doubt the idea will gain much traction however, as I've been reminded the opinions of the members of this board are irrelevant to it's running.

This is a very impractical suggestion. But more concerning is the inadvertent effects this might have. WP is not some popularity contest, there are plenty enough places on and off the internet that already are. We do not need for WP to become a popularity context, I for one would be very disappointed if it became one.

Voting for moderators is one thing (there are pros and cons entailed as with any forum policy/mode of operation), but doing so 3 monthly seems excessive, impractical and likely to be highly disruptive.

I also find it odd that there would be a need or desire to 'de-mod' moderators. I can see the point in adding more if and when there appears to be more of a work-load than current moderators are able to comfortably address, but unless there is gross-misconduct of a very intentional kind, why get rid of an asset - ie someone willing experienced, and already proven in the role?

I do think either a report post button or the ability to link to single posts would be helpful. This would make things easier for users to report, and easier for mods to check. I've posted on sites that have the ability to link to single posts, it made it very easy for moderators to locate problem posts (as reported) in very long threads. However, I have no idea what the technological restraints on implementing such features might be, and things do tick along well enough (given the huge membership and volume of traffic) without them.



Last edited by pandd on 08 Dec 2008, 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.