Making it Better: The future of WP

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League_Girl
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22 Aug 2020, 11:51 am

magz wrote:

Pepe wrote:

magz wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

magz wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I don't care if it's a personal attack. If someone decides to insult me, they shouldn't be surprised what I say to them next. I see it as self defense.

So you don't care about breaking the rules after someone else broke them first?

Precisely, Alex should add to the rules "no self defense, please use the mods against your attacker to get them into trouble." :mrgreen:

Crap, I think I just tipped my enemies off on how to get rid of me. :lol:

That would be redundant, as it would translate to "no breaking rules, even if in (perceived) self defence."

We can of course make a heap of "no breaking rules" rules but it wouldn't change anything, would it?

There *has to* be some leeway.
The main thing is that decisions need to be equitable/impartial/consistent.

Yes, there has to be some leeway, we are living creatures, not digital machines (except of you, of course).

I was thinking about the "self defence" thing.
In real life, breaking law in self defence is permitted because you need to act immediately when your life, health or property is immediately threatned. If you didn't hit that guy with a knife, he could have broken your back before the police had time to do anything.
In internet communities, such situations are unlikely. No one's life, health or property is in immediate danger when you refrain from calling an idiot an idiot.

I think it's a natural reaction to react when someone insults you. If I were to verbally attack someone, they would attack me back. I'd say it's a skill people learn to not retaliate but that is where malicious compliance comes in because employees are expected to not react so they go the passive aggressive way when they get rude customers or get insulted by them.

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Brictoria
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22 Aug 2020, 11:58 am

envirozentinel wrote:

My BF's input is that WP shouldn't be a political forum, but somewhere where fellow autists can get together in friendship to have a "chat".

The political areas (PPR and news) would be OK if people could refrain from attacking other people for posting something with which they disagreed, and instead addressed replies to the content that was posted.

Discussing policies\events\? and the pros\cons of different things would be a great way for people to understand the "other side", but too many seem determined to "defend" their side (or see any attack on their position as being an attack on themselves) rather than being open to listening to alternative views.

League_Girl
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22 Aug 2020, 12:01 pm

Teach51 wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I think it's a great pity that toxic American Politics is causing the ambience here to go belly up.

Some of us just want our popcorn and only say something when necessary.

That does seem to be the root of the problem, the question is should WP be an American political platform? There are so many platforms specifically for this, or is its purpose to unite autistics from around the globe under one protected umbrella and focus on mutual assistance, combating isolation, healing and strengthening the sense of well- being.
Political combat does none of these.
Non-Americans will leave otherwise, and also those on the bad end of the most popular political trend. It would be a tragedy for WP to go belly-up just because people can't live with each others' diversity of thought. That doesn't bode well for America or the rest of the world either.

It sounds to me like this:
" I am going to kill you, I hate you because you don't like pretzels and don't agree with me that pretzels are better than Pringles, you are bigoted because you don't agree with me and I will shame you because I can't tolerate anyone who prefers Pringles when I know pretzels will be better for you and the whole world. I will control how you think according to my values and life experience, what do you know about snacks? and I don't care if you have Celiac's disease I know what you should prefer and I will dictate to you what you should think."

I hate politics, they divide and destroy. All we need is mutual respect.

It's not that way at all. Pretzels and pringles don't harm other humans.

People are supporting someone who oppresses women and minorities and breaks laws and is trying to rid the election by removing mail boxes and sorting machines to delay the mailing vote ins, he has admitted this himself.

Would you want to support someone who supports sex trafficking or child trafficking or support someone who supports child porn or support someone who would want to bring back segregation laws and bring back that women must be house wives and must be stay at home moms and taking away womens' freedom?

If we were to have such person running for president and people still voted for him or her, I am sure you would feel upset that people are supporting this person.

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magz
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22 Aug 2020, 12:06 pm

DeepHour wrote:

^ You could argue though that pretty much everything is 'political'.

I think it's not true unless at least one of the following happens:
1. People make everything political (vide COVID response in some countries...);
2. Your definition of "political" gets extremely broad.

Even then, I don't think "everything is political" means political partisanships from one particular country should be in the center of attention of a worldwide support group for autistic people and their allies.

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Teach51
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22 Aug 2020, 12:28 pm

League_Girl wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I think it's a great pity that toxic American Politics is causing the ambience here to go belly up.

Some of us just want our popcorn and only say something when necessary.

I would like to think that WP will not self-destruct because of the coming American election. This is not a campaign platform for either party. It's all about boundaries I think. This thread was doing superbly well, Fnord even changed his Avatar to a smiling gramps and wounds were being healed, everyone was constructively thinking how to make WP stronger, then it became a political arena. That's why politics should be isolated to one section only. See how rapidly the mood changes? There are a thousand platforms to be bullied on politically, here it should be different.

If Alex is still here I would like to say that I have visited Asperger Forums and they have an option to choose whether to interact with the political forum or not on registration. The ambience there is fairly free of personal attacks and it is constructive. Vulnerable members who were targeted here for their unpopular political views and some really supportive and kind members who left WP because they hate an environment of conflict and hostility are thriving there. It provides support, social interaction, humour and information exchange netto.

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alex
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22 Aug 2020, 12:53 pm

Science shouldn't be political. Saying "masks don't work" is not political, it's denial of science.

Saying "covid is a hoax, it will go away" is not political, it's denial of science.

I started social distancing at the end of February after talking to a tv writer friend who is also a harvard educated epidemiologist. Everything she said regarding how bad it would be and what we needed to do to stop it back in February and what would happen if we didn't has come true and continues to come true but all along the way people have been acting like we didn't know what we were in store for.

And the anti-science stuff, while mainly on the right, sometimes is on the left as well. For instance, the "don't wear a mask, they don't work unless you're a doctor and know how to wear one" BS at the beginning of this pandemic was pretty clearly a lie meant to conserve them for hospital staff. Common sense told me at the time: how hard is it to wear a mask properly? It's not a fighter jet

If your opinion is "I acknowledge the science and I'm ok with hundreds of thousands of Americans dying from this thing because having the freedom to go to a physical church building with other people is sacred to me," that would be political.
It's not like the right is a fan of the virus. They want it to go away too. But it doesn't matter whether or not you like the virus. You'll get infected and spread it either way unless you follow scientifically valid ways of preventing the spread. And by and large, people on the right (or more specifically, trump supporters- a lot of right wingers are trying to get trump out of office at this point) are actively discouraging these methods because they're politicizing anti-scientific views.

Now with that said, if the discussions on PP&R are causing a major issue on the site, we need to figure out how to prevent that from infecting discussions where it has no place. Perhaps we could just make it pretty clear that you can't discuss politics outside of the ppr forum in any way and make that strictly enforced.

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Teach51
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22 Aug 2020, 12:56 pm

I also believe that only positive actions and "do as I do, not do as I say,"
meaning by personal example and not by rhetoric is what changes things for the better ultimately.

There definitely is a serious issue with PP&R and News and Current Events it would make all the difference if some serious boundaries were set Alex!

I also can't believe that anyone who has a mind wouldn't advocate social distancing and wearing masks. It is a proven method of curbing the spreading of the disease. In my country you get a heavy fine if not wearing a mask and it is mandatory even while walking outdoors except if you are engaging in sport.

PPR should require "isolation" from the other forums just like Covid19 requires serious isolation measures, for the benefit of those of us who are not yet immune to toxic, combative political debate.

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Last edited by Teach51 on 22 Aug 2020, 1:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

vermontsavant
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22 Aug 2020, 1:00 pm

alex wrote:

There wouldn't be a news and current events forum without politics as well.Instead of banning politics as the easy way out,WP members should make a better concerted effort to treat other members better.

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alex
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22 Aug 2020, 1:02 pm

Teach51 wrote:

I also believe that only positive actions and "do as I do, not do as I say,"
meaning by personal example and not by rhetoric is what changes things for the better ultimately.

I think that's a good point. Saying "you're a racist, FU" is not going to help someone become less racist. But trying to educate and lead by example may ultimately work at least once in a while.

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sly279
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22 Aug 2020, 1:03 pm

Amity wrote:

alex wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Alex: Because you haven't been here in a while, you might not be aware of how things degenerated lately. Most of us are here because we're autistic and many of us aren't even American. I block everything about American politics right now and don't set foot in the PPR.

Yet, these feuds and petty grudges created on political grounds have been spilling all over the forum, including the Haven and the rest of us can't use the forum for its intended purpose without every other thread being derailed into endless, repetitive and violent arguments and downright harassment (some people were indeed threatened with physical violence). It's enough to disagree with someone on non-political issues to be called a snowflake, a Nazi or even a racist.

There has also been a serious problem with the way very young people and those lower functioning are being treated, which included various forms of invalidation, insults and being told to their faces that their opinions and experiences don't matter due to their age or level of impairment.

So a lot of people left or found a home on other Autistic fora. And it's usually the polite, articulate ones who contributed greatly to keeping this place together.

Don't you think these are serious issues? Do you want non-Americans and those who refuse to participate in this circus and use this place for its intended purpose to just leave?

Well i think we should do whatever we can to stop that from happening to be honest.

I'm glad this exchange took place, this is a good point to move forward from.

To view this place as a community, and to focus on solutions for the whole membership will require compromise.

As a European I believed that I was included meaningfully, ive realised that this has not been the case.

It's good to know that action will be taken to ensure that non American Autistic people wont continue to be pushed out and treated as less valued or second class Autistic members because of the location we post from.

Yet most threads are started by non Americans. Mostly Canadians and Australians.
Don’t see too many anti trump anti republican threads made by Americans. Then Americans try to defend themselves and get attacked. So the question is why are foreigners so focused on American politics. Australia for example should be more concerned with their own and that of China’s growing control over the world.
Americans on other hand outside of China and Russia don’t care about others poltics. Never heard Americans discussing Mexican or Canadian elections. Most don’t even onow who rules other nations outside Putin and caandian(do to his black face incident)
Whol runs China? Who runs Australia? European nations forget about it.
Most active members here now are non Americans, yet the political posts are all about America?

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sly279
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22 Aug 2020, 1:03 pm

Teach51 wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I think it's a great pity that toxic American Politics is causing the ambience here to go belly up.

Some of us just want our popcorn and only say something when necessary.

See my above.

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sly279
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22 Aug 2020, 1:05 pm

envirozentinel wrote:

My BF's input is that WP shouldn't be a political forum, but somewhere where fellow autists can get together in friendship to have a "chat".

You’d have to remove and not allow any news talk.

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Wolfram87
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22 Aug 2020, 1:07 pm

America is large and influential enough that its politics are of interest to the rest of the world. It's not that weird.

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League_Girl
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22 Aug 2020, 1:08 pm

We can always get rid of PPR all together. I know lot of places online have banned politics.

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sly279
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22 Aug 2020, 1:10 pm

Teach51 wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Teach51 wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

I think it's a great pity that toxic American Politics is causing the ambience here to go belly up.

Some of us just want our popcorn and only say something when necessary.

Wp got worse in 2016 and never recovered, if trump wins again which I think he will then wp will only get worse as certain people Tripple down.

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Wolfram87
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22 Aug 2020, 1:11 pm

PPR is more good than bad, and WP would be that much poorer without it. The grudges and the spillover are problems, though.

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