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Brictoria
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24 Aug 2020, 9:56 pm

alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Still no response from Alex on this or any of the other heartfelt comments we have made on this thread.

Alex,
So many of us have tried to work towards a resolution with you and we have yet to be addressed. Instead, you came and briefly commented on an avatar, and then bailed again. I realize no one enjoys being confronted with criticism, nor is it easy to acknowledge those sentiments, but it is necessary for the well-being of this community.

Please return to the thread with an open mind and humility, and address our concerns about your recent comments.


What do you mean by bail? As far as criticism goes, if people have an issue with my hardline stance against racism, I will just say that is not up for debate. Using hate speech or imagery even in jest will not be tolerated here. It's as simple as that.


No-one here is in favor of racism (as far as I know). The problem is what we are also against, and where a lot of problems come from, are false claims of racism and "white supremecy" being levelled at others on the site by people who disagree with them, but are unwilling to hold a discussion to try and explain different viewpoints, nor provide any evidence to support these libelous claims.

There is also the matter of anyone who has a centrist\right wing view here being the target of "nazi" claims, or being "right-wing", which was in "fashion" among some members for quite a while, even after being reminded attacks on groups such as this was not permitted.



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24 Aug 2020, 10:13 pm

Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Still no response from Alex on this or any of the other heartfelt comments we have made on this thread.

Alex,
So many of us have tried to work towards a resolution with you and we have yet to be addressed. Instead, you came and briefly commented on an avatar, and then bailed again. I realize no one enjoys being confronted with criticism, nor is it easy to acknowledge those sentiments, but it is necessary for the well-being of this community.

Please return to the thread with an open mind and humility, and address our concerns about your recent comments.


What do you mean by bail? As far as criticism goes, if people have an issue with my hardline stance against racism, I will just say that is not up for debate. Using hate speech or imagery even in jest will not be tolerated here. It's as simple as that.


No-one here is in favor of racism (as far as I know). The problem is what we are also against, and where a lot of problems come from, are false claims of racism and "white supremecy" being levelled at others on the site by people who disagree with them, but are unwilling to hold a discussion to try and explain different viewpoints, nor provide any evidence to support these libelous claims.

Calling someone racist is not libelous unless you're lying about the specifics of why you found that person to be racist. For example, if you said he's racist, he called so-and-so the n-word, and it didn't happen, that would be a valid claim of defamation. But saying "he's racist" is not defamation.

I would appreciate it if you didn't miscategorize statements as libelous when they aren't. If you believe I'm wrong, please consult with a lawyer.


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Brictoria
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24 Aug 2020, 10:23 pm

alex wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Still no response from Alex on this or any of the other heartfelt comments we have made on this thread.

Alex,
So many of us have tried to work towards a resolution with you and we have yet to be addressed. Instead, you came and briefly commented on an avatar, and then bailed again. I realize no one enjoys being confronted with criticism, nor is it easy to acknowledge those sentiments, but it is necessary for the well-being of this community.

Please return to the thread with an open mind and humility, and address our concerns about your recent comments.


What do you mean by bail? As far as criticism goes, if people have an issue with my hardline stance against racism, I will just say that is not up for debate. Using hate speech or imagery even in jest will not be tolerated here. It's as simple as that.


No-one here is in favor of racism (as far as I know). The problem is what we are also against, and where a lot of problems come from, are false claims of racism and "white supremecy" being levelled at others on the site by people who disagree with them, but are unwilling to hold a discussion to try and explain different viewpoints, nor provide any evidence to support these libelous claims.

Calling someone racist is not libelous unless you're lying about the specifics of why you found that person to be racist. For example, if you said he's racist, he called so-and-so the n-word, and it didn't happen, that would be a valid claim of defamation. But saying "he's racist" is not defamation.

I would appreciate it if you didn't miscategorize statements as libelous when they aren't. If you believe I'm wrong, please consult with a lawyer.


Libel:
Quote:
Definition. Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession.. Overview. Traditionally, libel was a tort governed by state law.


So are you saying that being called racist is not "injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession"? I cannot imagine there are many places in the world where a claim of racism against a person would not have that sort of impact. Whether the site as a whole (or only the poster) would be responsible for unfounded claims, though, is an interesting question which may require some investigation...



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24 Aug 2020, 10:32 pm

If a man laments about experiencing difficulty finding a girlfriend—that, in and of itself, is not misogyny.



alex
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24 Aug 2020, 10:34 pm

Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Still no response from Alex on this or any of the other heartfelt comments we have made on this thread.

Alex,
So many of us have tried to work towards a resolution with you and we have yet to be addressed. Instead, you came and briefly commented on an avatar, and then bailed again. I realize no one enjoys being confronted with criticism, nor is it easy to acknowledge those sentiments, but it is necessary for the well-being of this community.

Please return to the thread with an open mind and humility, and address our concerns about your recent comments.


What do you mean by bail? As far as criticism goes, if people have an issue with my hardline stance against racism, I will just say that is not up for debate. Using hate speech or imagery even in jest will not be tolerated here. It's as simple as that.


No-one here is in favor of racism (as far as I know). The problem is what we are also against, and where a lot of problems come from, are false claims of racism and "white supremecy" being levelled at others on the site by people who disagree with them, but are unwilling to hold a discussion to try and explain different viewpoints, nor provide any evidence to support these libelous claims.

Calling someone racist is not libelous unless you're lying about the specifics of why you found that person to be racist. For example, if you said he's racist, he called so-and-so the n-word, and it didn't happen, that would be a valid claim of defamation. But saying "he's racist" is not defamation.

I would appreciate it if you didn't miscategorize statements as libelous when they aren't. If you believe I'm wrong, please consult with a lawyer.


Libel:
Quote:
Definition. Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession.. Overview. Traditionally, libel was a tort governed by state law.


So are you saying that being called racist is not "injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession"? I cannot imagine there are many places in the world where a claim of racism against a person would not have that sort of impact. Whether the site as a whole (or only the poster) would be responsible for unfounded claims, though, is an interesting question which may require some investigation...

You’re forgetting that defamation must be untrue.


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Brictoria
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24 Aug 2020, 10:51 pm

alex wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
Still no response from Alex on this or any of the other heartfelt comments we have made on this thread.

Alex,
So many of us have tried to work towards a resolution with you and we have yet to be addressed. Instead, you came and briefly commented on an avatar, and then bailed again. I realize no one enjoys being confronted with criticism, nor is it easy to acknowledge those sentiments, but it is necessary for the well-being of this community.

Please return to the thread with an open mind and humility, and address our concerns about your recent comments.


What do you mean by bail? As far as criticism goes, if people have an issue with my hardline stance against racism, I will just say that is not up for debate. Using hate speech or imagery even in jest will not be tolerated here. It's as simple as that.


No-one here is in favor of racism (as far as I know). The problem is what we are also against, and where a lot of problems come from, are false claims of racism and "white supremecy" being levelled at others on the site by people who disagree with them, but are unwilling to hold a discussion to try and explain different viewpoints, nor provide any evidence to support these libelous claims.

Calling someone racist is not libelous unless you're lying about the specifics of why you found that person to be racist. For example, if you said he's racist, he called so-and-so the n-word, and it didn't happen, that would be a valid claim of defamation. But saying "he's racist" is not defamation.

I would appreciate it if you didn't miscategorize statements as libelous when they aren't. If you believe I'm wrong, please consult with a lawyer.


Libel:
Quote:
Definition. Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession.. Overview. Traditionally, libel was a tort governed by state law.


So are you saying that being called racist is not "injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession"? I cannot imagine there are many places in the world where a claim of racism against a person would not have that sort of impact. Whether the site as a whole (or only the poster) would be responsible for unfounded claims, though, is an interesting question which may require some investigation...

You’re forgetting that defamation must be untrue.


So, what you are saying, is that you are happy for people to make unsubstantiated claims such as that, provide no evidence to support the claim when it is asked for, and the person so labelled has to prove a negative "that they are not racist" with no indication what was supposedly "racist" that they had done, otherwise they MUST be guilty of being "racist"...... Automatic assumption of guilt, rather than the accuser having to prove their claim.



alex
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24 Aug 2020, 11:01 pm

Quote:
So, what you are saying, is that you are happy for people to make unsubstantiated claims such as that, provide no evidence to support the claim when it is asked for, and the person so labelled has to prove a negative "that they are not racist" with no indication what was supposedly "racist" that they had done, otherwise they MUST be guilty of being "racist"...... Automatic assumption of guilt, rather than the accuser having to prove their claim.


Well if the crime (or civil wrong) you’re accusing someone of is libel, yes you’d have to prove you’re not racist. Unfortunately that’s going to be hard for you to prove if that person’s definition of racism is much broader than yours.


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AuroraBorealisGazer
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24 Aug 2020, 11:18 pm

Alex, can you please respond to my post now?



Brictoria
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24 Aug 2020, 11:21 pm

Oh_no_its_Ferris wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
But defending the use of the n-word while criticising the use of “racist”, or publicly opposing bullying while also participating in it - not fine.


Sorry about the first comment.

But if his quote is to believed it wasn't used in a racist way , he tried to equate his attack the same as racism , how is it racist to feel empathy for PoC who get called the 'N' word .

I have no idea what racism feels like but I sure know what defamation of my character feels like , that's what I'm critiscing.


I would love to see the screenshot Alex took yesterday or the day before of the post by Slyfox (offensive N word can be easily redacted in Paint or similar) that he used to attack SlyFox's reputation, too.



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24 Aug 2020, 11:25 pm

I also would love to see it too.


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Brictoria
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24 Aug 2020, 11:29 pm

alex wrote:
Quote:
So, what you are saying, is that you are happy for people to make unsubstantiated claims such as that, provide no evidence to support the claim when it is asked for, and the person so labelled has to prove a negative "that they are not racist" with no indication what was supposedly "racist" that they had done, otherwise they MUST be guilty of being "racist"...... Automatic assumption of guilt, rather than the accuser having to prove their claim.


Well if the crime (or civil wrong) you’re accusing someone of is libel, yes you’d have to prove you’re not racist. Unfortunately that’s going to be hard for you to prove if that person’s definition of racism is much broader than yours.


And as pointed out in my initial comment, it has been an ongoing issue here for quite some time, of certain members throwing claims of "racist" or "racism" at people - no evidence supplied with claim, no evidence supplied when requested because member claims to be "too busy to do so"...And apparently this is not a personal attack. ("White supremecist" is also used by the same member(s) in the same way).

How can it be considered anything but defamatory or libelous if there is no way supplied to defend against it (or evidence to support claim supplied), and how can the site not be considered equally responsible for allowing the practice to continue?



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24 Aug 2020, 11:49 pm

Amity wrote:
alex wrote:
Amity wrote:
Straight talking:
Alex in the space of a few days you have undone the work of thousands of man hours, you may have no heed on our work or our voices, you may take our autistic energy for granted, but that doesnt mean that I will consent to being taken for granted.

You may own the site and invest hard earned money but how you are behaving towards undoing the collective efforts of this community is callous.

How can I contribute to your efforts and heed your work? Please let me know because I would like to support that and want the community to be the best it can be.


Before I begin:
You abandoned us and that is callous, I cant trust an admin that does that.

We operated here through peer cooperation in the absence of an active admin, which is utterly amazing when you consider our apparent social disabilities.

We achieved that through informal voluntary work and a tonne of work-arounds yes regular members voluntarily donated their time to keep the peace, we kept it operational through collaboration.

You have arrived here behaving totally out of touch with the WP of today and seeming as if you are entitled to do so.
This is not the school project that you can do with as you please, this is a collaborative autistic space.

Get on board or appoint someone to do that for you.

You have ethical responsibilities to tend to at minimum.

Ok I'm keeping this process practical slimline and cost effective, however, these are the minimum if you are indeed genuine with your words:

Appoint members to assist in producing:

A clear mission statement vision and ethos.

Revision of the rules to reflect the world we live in today.

Publish mod guidelines.

Actual meaningful inclusion of the non American user base, I believe we exist in significant numbers, I am tired of us being classed as of lesser importance because I'm not in America.
Besides we broaden horizons.

Also can you put the politics in a box please in PPR, not here in this thread or section.

Hi Alex

Had any thoughts on this?


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24 Aug 2020, 11:59 pm

Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
Quote:
So, what you are saying, is that you are happy for people to make unsubstantiated claims such as that, provide no evidence to support the claim when it is asked for, and the person so labelled has to prove a negative "that they are not racist" with no indication what was supposedly "racist" that they had done, otherwise they MUST be guilty of being "racist"...... Automatic assumption of guilt, rather than the accuser having to prove their claim.


Well if the crime (or civil wrong) you’re accusing someone of is libel, yes you’d have to prove you’re not racist. Unfortunately that’s going to be hard for you to prove if that person’s definition of racism is much broader than yours.


And as pointed out in my initial comment, it has been an ongoing issue here for quite some time, of certain members throwing claims of "racist" or "racism" at people - no evidence supplied with claim, no evidence supplied when requested because member claims to be "too busy to do so"...And apparently this is not a personal attack. ("White supremecist" is also used by the same member(s) in the same way).

How can it be considered anything but defamatory or libelous if there is no way supplied to defend against it (or evidence to support claim supplied), and how can the site not be considered equally responsible for allowing the practice to continue?

could you please give me some examples of this? I find it hard that someone would just randomly say you're racist to someone outside the context of a discussion where they mind that persons' beliefs racist.

Like I can picture someone saying "I am against black lives matter" and someone responding with "that is racist" or "i support x politician (who may be widely viewed as racist)" and someone saying "that makes you racist" but where are people just throwing around the term with no context/evidence?

Quote:
Hi Alex

Had any thoughts on this?

If you don't trust the admin of the site you're on I don't know what to say. I want the site to be positive and have a great vibe. It used to have a way more positive vibe when I was around so maybe you're right about me driving things. But I have been running this site since I was a teenager so please forgive me if I try to do other things in my life to make a difference.

As far as your suggestion to publish clear guidelines, i've thought about and while I've only had a chance to post guidelines on how we deal with racism, you can check that post out in this forum. I just posted it.

As far as other countries go, that's perfectly fine. I would love to have a more international contingent here because I love other countries. I technically have dual citizenship with italy. I have roots in Ireland and germany as well.


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25 Aug 2020, 12:26 am

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
alex wrote:
While of course people in other countries may be unaware of these things, i think it’s their responsibility to look into the history if they’re going to argue whether or not someone is racist.

But like as I said, slavery was very recent, legalized racism was even more recent and black people are still victims of racism on a daily basis.

So if you grew up in America you very likely are racist in at least some way. And it’s our responsibility to try to be introspective and challenge those believes in ourselves and in others.


Many of us here have expressed that we are constantly trying to understand all of the social rules, but as autists there's a big learning curve. Particularly with topics where the rules are constantly evolving.

For example, earlier in this thread it was stated that using the word "female" meant you were an incel. This is the type of nuance that they don't teach you in history books. It's the type of thing you may learn with a lot of social experience. I would hate to think it would be considered okay for a member to be proclaimed as an incel for using the word "female", without anyone ever taking the time to explain the connotation to them. Not only because it is distressing to know you've caused offense without understanding why, but because it detracts from the very serious designation of incel behavior.

So with all due respect, while I agree that we should all try our best to be cognizant, it seems ableist to expect us all to know the social rules given that this is an ASD site. Instead can we consider the approach I (and others) have suggested, of calmly explaining why the person was offensive?


Here is the post I mentioned Alex


:?:



alex
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25 Aug 2020, 12:34 am

AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
alex wrote:
While of course people in other countries may be unaware of these things, i think it’s their responsibility to look into the history if they’re going to argue whether or not someone is racist.

But like as I said, slavery was very recent, legalized racism was even more recent and black people are still victims of racism on a daily basis.

So if you grew up in America you very likely are racist in at least some way. And it’s our responsibility to try to be introspective and challenge those believes in ourselves and in others.


Many of us here have expressed that we are constantly trying to understand all of the social rules, but as autists there's a big learning curve. Particularly with topics where the rules are constantly evolving.

For example, earlier in this thread it was stated that using the word "female" meant you were an incel. This is the type of nuance that they don't teach you in history books. It's the type of thing you may learn with a lot of social experience. I would hate to think it would be considered okay for a member to be proclaimed as an incel for using the word "female", without anyone ever taking the time to explain the connotation to them. Not only because it is distressing to know you've caused offense without understanding why, but because it detracts from the very serious designation of incel behavior.

So with all due respect, while I agree that we should all try our best to be cognizant, it seems ableist to expect us all to know the social rules given that this is an ASD site. Instead can we consider the approach I (and others) have suggested, of calmly explaining why the person was offensive?


Here is the post I mentioned Alex


:?:

Well no one is getting banned for these things or reprimanded in any way.

I don't know why you'd assume someone was incel because they used the word female although that seems like an odd term to use in a non formal context (like your driver license) maybe that's what they're referring to?

Also I thought incel was something people identified as, not something you just called people. Didn't incels come up with the term?


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25 Aug 2020, 12:44 am

alex wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
AuroraBorealisGazer wrote:
alex wrote:
While of course people in other countries may be unaware of these things, i think it’s their responsibility to look into the history if they’re going to argue whether or not someone is racist.

But like as I said, slavery was very recent, legalized racism was even more recent and black people are still victims of racism on a daily basis.

So if you grew up in America you very likely are racist in at least some way. And it’s our responsibility to try to be introspective and challenge those believes in ourselves and in others.


Many of us here have expressed that we are constantly trying to understand all of the social rules, but as autists there's a big learning curve. Particularly with topics where the rules are constantly evolving.

For example, earlier in this thread it was stated that using the word "female" meant you were an incel. This is the type of nuance that they don't teach you in history books. It's the type of thing you may learn with a lot of social experience. I would hate to think it would be considered okay for a member to be proclaimed as an incel for using the word "female", without anyone ever taking the time to explain the connotation to them. Not only because it is distressing to know you've caused offense without understanding why, but because it detracts from the very serious designation of incel behavior.

So with all due respect, while I agree that we should all try our best to be cognizant, it seems ableist to expect us all to know the social rules given that this is an ASD site. Instead can we consider the approach I (and others) have suggested, of calmly explaining why the person was offensive?


Here is the post I mentioned Alex


:?:

Well no one is getting banned for these things or reprimanded in any way.

I don't know why you'd assume someone was incel because they used the word female although that seems like an odd term to use in a non formal context (like your driver license) maybe that's what they're referring to?

Also I thought incel was something people identified as, not something you just called people. Didn't incels come up with the term?


Maybe not banned or formally reprimanded, but you did get quite upset with several posters over things they tried to explain we're unknown to them. I know I've often misused words and been aggressively attacked for it. This is extremely distressing. To constantly fear you're going to say the wrong thing and not be allowed to explain, is horrible and causes a lot of anxiety. I think on an ASD website it's very important that we are just as cognizant of that as we are about hate language.

I definitely didn't assume this interpretation, it was said here in this thread. I wanted to use it as an example of how something may sound like an innocent word to someone, but means something totally different to someone else.