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hyperlexian
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01 Dec 2011, 12:03 pm

Fnord wrote:
jackbus01 wrote:
I also agree that banned members should not be talked about because it draws attention to their behavior.

Yet, those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

there is a good point - it's good to have examples of what is a bannable offense.

i am wondering about the whole idea behind being doomed to repeat history if you don't remember it. there have been several (many) dictators and several genocides despite consistent reminders of the past transgressions. education didn't stop the individuals and regimes that came later. so i don't know if that is the best example of why we should make bannings more public.

and thanks, jackbus01!

EDIT: i took your post differently from how you intended i guess Tequila. but it still doesn't work as an example as we aren't rewriting anything by not discussing it publicly.


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Fnord
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01 Dec 2011, 3:25 pm

Perhaps a sticky list of banned offenders might be in order, something like:

  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
This list would be closed for edits and additions to all except the mods and Alex. Whaddaya think?


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HerrGrimm
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01 Dec 2011, 3:35 pm

EDIT: Put original post back since it was already quoted

This is not a new concept for some sites, but I never really saw it on a forum.

Do you think we really need names? I was thinking about this a little more, and it is more important to show WHY the banning/punitive action happened instead of WHO it was done to. (EDIT: I suggest the moderator who did the banning should also be posted)



Last edited by HerrGrimm on 01 Dec 2011, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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01 Dec 2011, 3:49 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Perhaps a sticky list of banned offenders might be in order, something like:
  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
This list would be closed for edits and additions to all except the mods and Alex. Whaddaya think?


This is not a new concept for some sites, but I never really saw it on a forum.

Do you think we really need names? I was thinking about this a little more, and it is more important to show WHY the banning/punitive action happened instead of WHO it was done to. (EDIT: I suggest the moderator who did the banning should also be posted)

interesting ideas, and i like the idea of removing the member's name.

as moderators, we don't make unilateral banning decisions though (unless obvious troll is obvious). it doesn't mean we always have to have 100% agreement from each other either, but it is generally a mutual decision. so attaching one moderator's name to the banning gives the mistaken impression that we make solo decisions.


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Fnord
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01 Dec 2011, 3:51 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Perhaps a sticky list of banned offenders might be in order, something like:
  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
This list would be closed for edits and additions to all except the mods and Alex. Whaddaya think?
This is not a new concept for some sites, but I never really saw it on a forum. Do you think we really need names?

Yes, as it would tend to discourage discussions about why the individual was banned or suspended. It would also discourage members from claiming to a new group of mods that they have never been banned or suspended, and thus their latest offense does not merit severe action.

HerrGrimm wrote:
I was thinking about this a little more, and it is more important to show WHY the banning/punitive action happened instead of WHO it was done to.

Then let me put it this way: If a member is unashamed to post the bannable offense in a public thread, then he or she should be equally unashamed to see the results of their actions also posted in a public thread.

HerrGrimm wrote:
(EDIT: I suggest the moderator who did the banning should also be posted)
  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • BY: < modname1 >
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
  • BY: < modname2 >
I like it!

:D


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PM
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01 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

I have seen this rank and title combination whilst lurking around threads 3 and 4 years old, but I have not seen it used on anyone that has been banned recently, maybe it should be used again.

Banned
Image


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Tequila
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01 Dec 2011, 3:58 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
but it still doesn't work as an example as we aren't rewriting anything by not discussing it publicly.


It is rewriting history if forum members cannot talk about banned members or anything they have posted in any context.



HerrGrimm
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01 Dec 2011, 4:16 pm

Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
but it still doesn't work as an example as we aren't rewriting anything by not discussing it publicly.


It is rewriting history if forum members cannot talk about banned members or anything they have posted in any context.


Their posts do not go away. You are over-dramatizing this with references to hit squads, Iran, and Stalin. It's just an Internet forum, not an independent country.

PM wrote:
I have seen this rank and title combination whilst lurking around threads 3 and 4 years old, but I have not seen it used on anyone that has been banned recently, maybe it should be used again.

Banned
Image


That's actually pretty cool. I like that.



Tequila
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01 Dec 2011, 4:24 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
Their posts do not go away. You are over-dramatizing this with references to hit squads, Iran, and Stalin. It's just an Internet forum, not an independent country.


Can we discuss their posts or is any conversation about anything a banned member says verboten?



Moog
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01 Dec 2011, 4:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
Perhaps a sticky list of banned offenders might be in order, something like:
  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
This list would be closed for edits and additions to all except the mods and Alex. Whaddaya think?


We do keep records like that, they just aren't available for public or members to view.


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Dox47
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01 Dec 2011, 4:47 pm

One simple idea that I've been pushing for some time is to have moderators basically surrender their mod hat when they participate in opinion threads as members, e.g. if a mod is posting in a discussion and sees a violation, they have to PM another mod to deal with it rather than addressing it directly. This might seem cumbersome, but it reduces the appearance of power abuse and keeps people from feeling picked on for opinions rather than behavior. Speaking from experience, few things are as frustrating as a member here than feeling like a mod is using their power to back up an ideological disagreement. I certainly got that feeling reading through the news forum thread that spawned this one, though people with mod badges participating in opinion threads while also moderating said thread in general tends to make me a tad nervous period.

Incidentally, it's been several years and I have still never been given a specific reason for why I was banned some time back. Certainly I was having a disagreement with the then current mod team over the meaning of "offensive content", but what particularly triggered the ban is still a mystery to me.


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Tequila
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01 Dec 2011, 5:09 pm

Agreed. This often happens on other forums because it gives an impartiality. An alternative idea would be to prohibit moderators from contributing their opinions to controversial threads.



hyperlexian
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01 Dec 2011, 5:18 pm

Dox47 wrote:
e.g. if a mod is posting in a discussion and sees a violation, they have to PM another mod to deal with it rather than addressing it directly.
we do that. there is no official rule but we do understand the importance of not allowing personal arguments to get in the way of moderating.


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Fnord
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01 Dec 2011, 6:02 pm

Moog wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Perhaps a sticky list of banned offenders might be in order, something like:
  • NAME: < membername1 >
  • OFFENSE: Posting obscene images
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 11/31/11
  • STATUS: Banned, Permanent, No Appeal
  • EFFECTIVE: 11/31/11
  • BY: < modname1 >
  • NAME: < membername2 >
  • OFFENSE: Use of racial slur
  • DATE OF OFFENSE: 9/31/11
  • STATUS: Suspension, 3-Day
  • EFFECTIVE: 9/31/11
  • BY: < modname2 >
This list would be closed for edits and additions to all except the mods and Alex. Whaddaya think?
We do keep records like that, they just aren't available for public or members to view.

Would you and the other mods please consider posting the records in the above format in a closed and sticky public thread? Thank you.


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MrXxx
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01 Dec 2011, 6:21 pm

Has anyone ever considered creating a "Dispute Resolution" forum? It could be placed under the Administration category.

Threads could be created there where members who are having a problem could either invite each other to, or be redirected by moderators.

One specific dispute per thread.

Moderators may or may not have to be involved in certain threads, depending on how well members seem to be handling their own disputes. If necessary, once resolution has been reached, either by mutual agreement by the members involved, or by the moderators if members can't seem to resolve problems on their own, the thread is locked. Locked when requested by those who have worked things out on their own, or locked my moderator determination when it appears clear that differences are never going to be worked out.

Resolution can be reached in one of a few ways:

1 - Member admits wrong doing and apologizes.
2 - Mutual agreement to agree to disagree and move on. (Possibly agreeing to just leave each other alone)
3 - Moderators may suggest that no resolution is possible and suggest that members avoid each other in the future.
4 - Moderators may ban one or both (or some or all) of the users involved.

Other resolution scenarios may or may not apply.

This is just the seed of an idea that could be built upon or changed, but you get the idea.

Another thing to possibly consider is an addition to WP rule 2:

Quote:
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.

2A - If a you feel you are being personally attacked, please let the presumed attacker know how you feel, politely and calmly. Do not attack in return. Take a time out if need be if you feel angry. Responses to attacks made in anger tend to make the situation worse. State why you feel you have been attacked (quote the specific statements made that offended you), and explain how it makes you feel.

2B - If you feel you have been attacked, have notified the other member as described above, and the other member persists in behavior that is offensive to you, you may request the other member to stop addressing you. You may request the other member cease responding to your posts, and/or referring to you in their posts, and/or quoting you. Please apply this suggestion sparingly! Too much repeated use of this suggestion could be considered an attempt to infringe upon other user's freedom of speech. EXCESSIVE USE OF THIS SUGGESTION MAY BE CONSIDERED ABUSE AND COULD RESULT IN SUSPENSION.

2C - If you have been told by another user that they feel that you have attacked them, and they have explained specifically why, please refrain from repeating the behavior, whether or not you feel you intended to attack them. Apologies cost nothing, and help maintain peace among members. EDIT: If the users has not explained specifically why they feel offended, either stop responding to them, or ask them to provide specifics why they feel offended.

2D - If a member has requested that you stop responding to them, referring to them or quoting them, you must stop doing so immediately. Users ignoring such requests face account suspension and/or banning.


END OF BRAINSTORM

Might need some work, but maybe there's some seeds of useful ideas here. :?:


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Last edited by MrXxx on 02 Dec 2011, 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrXxx
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01 Dec 2011, 6:42 pm

A couple of things occurred to me about the DR forum idea:

Advantage: Disputes that start on other forums might be able to be split and moved to this forum, if caught soon enough.

Disadvantage: The forum can't be restricted only to users involved in disputes. Since anyone could become involved in threads there, that could create more problems, but I suppose we'd never know until it's tried.


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I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...