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Aristophanes
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16 Jun 2016, 1:27 pm

All I would say is that on a help site, like WP, you're going to run into a lot of people that depend on government services for them to live their everyday lives. Chances are there aren't gonna be a whole heck of a lot of them that want to "starve" government, since it would have a huge negative impact on their life. Furthermore, the right has always been about "authority", pushing out the "weak", and generally policies that support those already in power (hence conservative, i.e. don't want change)-- all of those are policies that tend to hurt autistic individuals. It's not that WP is intentionally anti-right, just that the demographics trend that way. Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.



0_equals_true
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16 Jun 2016, 4:02 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I'll post in more depth when I get home from work, but I just wanted to point out that VegetableMan seems to get what I'm saying, that it's possible to argue politics without being needlessly inflammatory about it. I don't want to see anyone get shut down for expressing their opinions, I'd just like to curb some of the most over the top bashing, even if it's just in the form of an occasional "hey guys, that's enough".


My impression is people are copying what is happening on political campaigns. This is pretty much the game in party politics. Lots of people have strong party politcal alignment or very typical voting block alignment.

That is where the whole contard/liberal spiel comes from.



Dox47
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16 Jun 2016, 4:16 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Oh and not everything is about you.


You mean like this thread? The one that I made on behalf of a group I don't belong to, but that you keep trying to make about me?


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Lukeda420
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16 Jun 2016, 4:47 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Oh and not everything is about you.


You mean like this thread? The one that I made on behalf of a group I don't belong to, but that you keep trying to make about me?


That makes no sense at all. This is what I meant about misreading everything I say.



Dox47
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16 Jun 2016, 4:59 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
That makes no sense at all. This is what I meant about misreading everything I say.


Put down the bong and read it again, it's quite simple; my OP is not about me, and no part of this thread referenced me personally until you showed up and started making it about me. Literally the only person on this thread trying to make it about Dox47 is you.


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Lukeda420
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16 Jun 2016, 5:03 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
That makes no sense at all. This is what I meant about misreading everything I say.


Put down the bong and read it again, it's quite simple; my OP is not about me, and no part of this thread referenced me personally until you showed up and started making it about me. Literally the only person on this thread trying to make it about Dox47 is you.


Again you misunderstand. And I don't appreciate your tone.



Darmok
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16 Jun 2016, 5:05 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.


So anyone who is autistic should favor taking other people's money by force in order to live the way they want to. Got it.


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Dox47
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16 Jun 2016, 5:09 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Again you misunderstand. And I don't appreciate your tone.


That everyone else in this thread has been addressing my arguments while you've been attacking me personally? What's to understand? Seriously, this "you're wrong, but I won't actually explain why" thing you've been doing lately is getting old.


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Lukeda420
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16 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Again you misunderstand. And I don't appreciate your tone.


That everyone else in this thread has been addressing my arguments while you've been attacking me personally? What's to understand? Seriously, this "you're wrong, but I won't actually explain why" thing you've been doing lately is getting old.


Not attacking you. Wow I don't know how you got that.



TheSpectrum
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16 Jun 2016, 5:20 pm

Darmok wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.


So anyone who is autistic should favor taking other people's money by force in order to live the way they want to. Got it.

A little extreme to draw that from Aristophanes' statement but amusing nonetheless.
I have to agree with him, though. Why would a forum made up of those who primarily relying on the support of others want to support parties or their policies that cut those cords? They're the ultimate boogeyman to them. Then there are the Aspies who perhaps work, or put in a lot of effort into something particular and they adopt more forthright and conservative views, as they feel they've had to work super hard to get to where they are now and that we should all do the same. Thus there is the divide, which doesn't even take into account social issues which is another can of worms in itself.

Also Luke, you're getting pretty boring. There's a list of fallacies and flawed reasoning techniques people use when they don't support the views of a sensible discussion or the person opening it, and you're going through them all like a playbook. Dox's thread wants to address some of the problems he feels PPR is currently facing and others are contributing. Let's keep it that way.


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Lukeda420
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16 Jun 2016, 5:31 pm

TheSpectrum wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.


So anyone who is autistic should favor taking other people's money by force in order to live the way they want to. Got it.

A little extreme to draw that from Aristophanes' statement but amusing nonetheless.
I have to agree with him, though. Why would a forum made up of those who primarily relying on the support of others want to support parties or their policies that cut those cords? They're the ultimate boogeyman to them. Then there are the Aspies who perhaps work, or put in a lot of effort into something particular and they adopt more forthright and conservative views, as they feel they've had to work super hard to get to where they are now and that we should all do the same. Thus there is the divide, which doesn't even take into account social issues which is another can of worms in itself.

Also Luke, you're getting pretty boring. There's a list of fallacies and flawed reasoning techniques people use when they don't support the views of a sensible discussion or the person opening it, and you're going through them all like a playbook. Dox's thread wants to address some of the problems he feels PPR is currently facing and others are contributing. Let's keep it that way.


I would be fine with that if he actually understood his role here. He creates plenty of hostility. And he's insulted me personally plenty of times since the creation of this thread. And I'm not using fallacious argument techniques. I'm just not going to put a lot of effort into talking to someone who misunderstands everything I say and makes a lot if false assumptions based on those misunderstandings. Especially when they are as rude as he has been.

And if I'm boring just skip my posts. No one's making you read this stuff.



Dox47
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17 Jun 2016, 1:40 am

Lukeda420 wrote:
Not attacking you. Wow I don't know how you got that.


You came in calling me thin skinned and accusing me of creating hostility; whether or not those things are true, they have nothing to do with the issues I've raised, and are critical of me specifically rather than anything I've said.


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Dox47
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17 Jun 2016, 1:54 am

Lukeda420 wrote:
I would be fine with that if he actually understood his role here.


I have a role here? Last I checked, I was just a guy who posts here, I didn't have any specific job, though I do enjoy playing the gadfly.

Lukeda420 wrote:
He creates plenty of hostility.


Indeed, I do, people often don't like it when someone repeatedly points out the holes in their arguments and the gaps in their knowledge, both personal specialties. Frankly, it would be more surprising is I didn't cause hostility given my ideological differences with much of the board, but I also don't engage in the kind of baiting, pointless, borderline trolling behavior I've been describing in this thread. Yes, I'm merciless when someone doesn't know what they're talking about, as well you know, or hasn't really thought their position through, but I don't belittle and antagonize groups with schoolyard insults and broad brush attacks. If I did, I'd be hearing about it, it's not like I don't have enemies here who'd delight in causing me difficulties.

Lukeda420 wrote:
And he's insulted me personally plenty of times since the creation of this thread.


You mean calling attention to the fact you don't know what you're talking about? I could certainly be nicer about it, but you haven't given me any reason to.

Lukeda420 wrote:
And I'm not using fallacious argument techniques. I'm just not going to put a lot of effort into talking to someone who misunderstands everything I say and makes a lot if false assumptions based on those misunderstandings. Especially when they are as rude as he has been.


You keep saying I'm misunderstanding you without ever actually saying what it is I'm supposed to be getting; you're even fallacious when denying your fallacies.


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Dox47
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17 Jun 2016, 2:02 am

Aristophanes wrote:
All I would say is that on a help site, like WP, you're going to run into a lot of people that depend on government services for them to live their everyday lives. Chances are there aren't gonna be a whole heck of a lot of them that want to "starve" government, since it would have a huge negative impact on their life. Furthermore, the right has always been about "authority", pushing out the "weak", and generally policies that support those already in power (hence conservative, i.e. don't want change)-- all of those are policies that tend to hurt autistic individuals. It's not that WP is intentionally anti-right, just that the demographics trend that way. Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.


I would argue that many people here don't really get where conservatives are coming from on this stuff, making a lot of bad faith assumptions to the effect that conservatives want people to die in the street, when their perspective is closer to wanting to teach a man to fish rather than giving him a fish. I'm not even really blaming people for the misconception, I had similar beliefs before I went to gunsmithing school, they were pervasive where I grew up in Seattle, and it took an extended period of close contact with a lot of very conservative people to understand their perspective. I mostly see it as an empathy fail, probably exacerbated by the autistic tendency to black and white thinking, towards what amounts to many people as a foreign culture.

Regardless of the cause, I think it's a problem for reasons I've already outlined, and one that should be addressed for the good of the site as a whole.


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androbot01
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17 Jun 2016, 2:56 am

It seems like both sides are equally capable of bad mouthing the other. I haven't noticed Conservatives being treated worse than anyone else.

Dox47 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
All I would say is that on a help site, like WP, you're going to run into a lot of people that depend on government services for them to live their everyday lives. Chances are there aren't gonna be a whole heck of a lot of them that want to "starve" government, since it would have a huge negative impact on their life. Furthermore, the right has always been about "authority", pushing out the "weak", and generally policies that support those already in power (hence conservative, i.e. don't want change)-- all of those are policies that tend to hurt autistic individuals. It's not that WP is intentionally anti-right, just that the demographics trend that way. Let me put it this way: I wouldn't go to a Bank of America forum and start talking about the positive benefits of Socialism and expect a warm reply. It's the same thing here, just less pronounced.


I would argue that many people here don't really get where conservatives are coming from on this stuff, making a lot of bad faith assumptions to the effect that conservatives want people to die in the street, when their perspective is closer to wanting to teach a man to fish rather than giving him a fish. I'm not even really blaming people for the misconception, I had similar beliefs before I went to gunsmithing school, they were pervasive where I grew up in Seattle, and it took an extended period of close contact with a lot of very conservative people to understand their perspective. I mostly see it as an empathy fail, probably exacerbated by the autistic tendency to black and white thinking, towards what amounts to many people as a foreign culture.

Regardless of the cause, I think it's a problem for reasons I've already outlined, and one that should be addressed for the good of the site as a whole.


While the teaching someone to fish metaphor is a good one, it does not apply to people who are incapable of fishing. It's good that you found something you could excel at, but not everyone is able to excel. Some people just don't function well in this world and they need help. If these people are left to fall they will make the sidewalks ugly with poverty and disease. Some people are okay with that, but I prefer it when society helps those who can't make it alone.



Lukeda420
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17 Jun 2016, 5:18 am

Dox47 wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
I would be fine with that if he actually understood his role here.


I have a role here? Last I checked, I was just a guy who posts here, I didn't have any specific job, though I do enjoy playing the gadfly.

Lukeda420 wrote:
He creates plenty of hostility.


Indeed, I do, people often don't like it when someone repeatedly points out the holes in their arguments and the gaps in their knowledge, both personal specialties. Frankly, it would be more surprising is I didn't cause hostility given my ideological differences with much of the board, but I also don't engage in the kind of baiting, pointless, borderline trolling behavior I've been describing in this thread. Yes, I'm merciless when someone doesn't know what they're talking about, as well you know, or hasn't really thought their position through, but I don't belittle and antagonize groups with schoolyard insults and broad brush attacks. If I did, I'd be hearing about it, it's not like I don't have enemies here who'd delight in causing me difficulties.

Lukeda420 wrote:
And he's insulted me personally plenty of times since the creation of this thread.


You mean calling attention to the fact you don't know what you're talking about? I could certainly be nicer about it, but you haven't given me any reason to.

Lukeda420 wrote:
And I'm not using fallacious argument techniques. I'm just not going to put a lot of effort into talking to someone who misunderstands everything I say and makes a lot if false assumptions based on those misunderstandings. Especially when they are as rude as he has been.


You keep saying I'm misunderstanding you without ever actually saying what it is I'm supposed to be getting; you're even fallacious when denying your fallacies.


You complain about hostility in PPR. Than you proudly admit to being a source of it. You're making my point.

I started off giving you my opinion but you just kept putting words in my mouth. So yeah, I stopped explaining myself to you.

And being merciless in a debate is fine. Insulting me is not.