politics, religion and philosophy board

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would it be possible to have a second religion/philosophy board that was not a debate board but had a more gentle astmosphere.

I know lots of others on wp who like these subjects but dont talk about them on the current board as it is so vile and is a debating board and there is not another subforum where its appropriate to share about religion/philosophy in a more gentle manner.

thanks

This is a very interesting idea; many times when people start discussing religion and other philosophy practice it is almost all ways ended in a internet fight. the idea of a neutral section for these topics that people agree not to push their beliefs on another, is just find.

I don't think it would work because there would be no way to keep the people who are making the current forum what it is out of the new one.

Wouldn't it be better to just keep the promise that was made in this thread, which for some reason is still a sticky there?

My biggest worry is that part of the issue is just subject area. All three subjects are full of MASSIVE dispute. I think that a lot of people will cross lines for that reason alone.

This is not to say that this is a bad idea at all, mind you. However, it has to be recognized that 2 of these are fields full of arguments(philosophy and politics), and that 2 of these are things to never discuss with strangers/acquaintances(politics and religion). (I suppose we could leave out politics though, as lotusblossom didn't include it)

If this division could be done somewhat experimentally, then that might not be a bad idea. I just.... have my doubts.

As for NobelCynic, I don't think that the promise given there is really.... strong enough to make the difference, as some people really don't like the oppositional nature of PPR. I mean, PPR has some personal attacks, but I don't think that the personal attacks are every aspect of what people often find annoying or vile about the forum. I think a lot of it is personality.

I think it would be a very good idea. The current PPR is a debate forum, and while I like that, it would also be nice to have a less combative place to discuss religion.

So just add a mod whose job it is to watch "PPR Lite" and move any excessively combative posts/threads to the old PPR. That seems like it would work reasonably well.

I think what scares a lot of people off of PPR is that nothing is unchallenged, it's not a place to just talk about your faith or ideas without being questioned. I would suggest that people who just want to talk about their faith in particular would be better served by the Haven or Member's Only forums, they feature stronger moderation and are more geared towards merely talking about things than the more adversarial PPR.

I don't think splitting PPR into a "full strength" and a "lite" version would be terribly effective or efficient, it would require constant vigilance to keep the two from spilling over into one another, and everything would be so subjective that it would be impossible to moderate fairly. The very nature of PPR pretty much dictates that things are going to get heated from time to time, all three subjects involve intangibles that are subject to debate and interpretation and everyone is going to have a different opinion. Add to that the important role that all three title subject play in many people's lives, and it becomes clearer why people are so passionate about them and why disagreements can quickly become so personal.

Basically, I think that any forum discussing these topics is going to have some strife, there is no way around that and attempts to "crack down" on such a forum inevitably backfire.

Having two PPR forums, doesn't seem much of a good idea, I mean, both forums, at least should be of different nature, such as different topics, not the same topics as the one, I really doubt that could work anyway.

If people dislike confrontations or so, then probably forums for a particular type of people could do better, such as a Religion-only forum, so atheists should not have to be there or to debate there, and making a strict rule against debating the truth nature of religion in such forum and trolling, I think that would make people more comfortable discussing things they identify with, that's an idea.

On the other hand, some seem they can't help it, so there would be always the same people having the same attitude in another forum. So I believe it is better to leave it as it is.

It is always appropriate to do that anywhere, and the bullies who either cannot or will not do that seem to usually just stay over there in PPR. So, I agree ...

I cannot help but wish something could be done. I went to PPR regularly early on, but it is the one section of WrongPlanet I have seen where it is impossible to have a straightforward discussion respected. A posts a really interesting question that I for one would be very interested in discussing, and the skeeters [I live in a swamp so am conscious of that issue this summer] swarm out of the grass with how bad it is to believe something they don't.

I am pretty apolitical, so I am not sure how it goes with those topics, but I would not dream of posting a political thought lest it too be nibbled to death by goldfish with a piranha complex.

AZs it is, I amlost always stay well away. If I want that all I have to do is email my brother.

This is an interesting idea, but to be totally honest, from what I have seen on many other similar boards, there is only one way to make it work.

One forum is clearly marked as a DEBATE forum.

The other is clearly marked as an AGREEMENT or SUPPORT forum. In this one, you have to have clear cut rules that no disagreement or challenges are allowed. If you don't agree with the OP, you don't reply, period. Also, it isn't even worth setting it up unless it is constantly monitored in real time, dissenting posts are nuked as quickly as possible, and the offenders are warned three times, and out you go forever. Just asking and expecting "nice" behavior doesn't work, first because everybody's got a different idea of what constitutes nice, and second because human nature being what it is, questions will be raised and seen as challenges, and/or the rule of being nice will itself be challenged, debated and questioned. There can be no questioning, and the only way to avoid that is to insist on agreement only.

The only peaceful forums of this type I have ever seen are those run by particular groups, members of which are already in mass agreement, and questioners are already convinced the site doctrine is true, and the questioner is simply asking for clarification on certain points. Any other set up I've seen results in debate.

If you treat each OP as a metaphor for the sites I mentioned above, it might work. Any other way, I honestly believe will only end up the same as the existing forum. Or, it will end up as a clique with all dissenting users banned.

That, of course, is a huge part of our problem. We don't have the staffing for that; all moderators are volunteers with lives and jobs outside of modding this place. Even some boards with paid monitors have trouble keeping up in real time.

It would be nice if there could be more respect of differing opinions. I'm a pretty liberal Christian, but I can't say anything about what I believe (when it comes to faith) on that forum without getting sky fairy comments; that really is inappropriate. I already know that some people think I'm being deluded or guilted into faith or otherwise showing a complete lack of intelligent thought on the subject; just how many times does one need to be reminded of that? "Do you believe in God" is a debate thread; know that going in. "What do you think this Bible passage is trying to say?" isn't, really. Ultimately, certain members have made sure that the board is entirely political, and that no real discussion of religion can take place.

If a topic isn't being presented for serious, PPR style, discussion, maybe the rules of the thread could be put in the first post, maybe by a moderator so that it is taken more seriously, and fits within certain parameters. For instance, if a group of Christian members want to talk about a Bible passage, shouldn't we be able to say, "this thread is for serious study of the passage, and not comments about the inanity of religion or similar sarcasm." By putting that in bold at the start of the thread, it becomes the rule for the thread, and violations can be moved out. (Most likely, one long, "Bible" thread would be better than multiples).

The topic that prompted this thread, however, was a bit more borderline. That WAS a political topic, in my view, but the OP had very specific purposes in mind when he started the thread. Hard to keep the opinions out of that one, when even I (doing a quick scan of the last few pages) saw posts that stated things I know not to be true (I still get to post as a member, right?). Still, it would be nice to have a way to manage a discussion like that better from the beginning.

Just FYI, an OP DOES ALWAYS have the right to do is ask FOR A THREAD TO BE SHUT DOWN, if it spins out of control in a way they find upsetting, and that is what ended up happening.

The Conservatives thread is interesting from the standpoint of what it is trying to do, and I haven't read that far into it, but this is one where I would be inclined to let the Conservatives have their thread without those of differing opinion mocking it. Still, if someone mistakes a fact, shouldn't that be open to input from another side? For example, if someone were to insist 90% of the US population is now illegal immigrants, geez, who needs to let that sort of thing stand? Still the lines get a little gray, because facts aren't always that clear. I would be willing to put a bold note on a thread like about it's purpose, and encouraging people to comply with that purpose in good faith, IF anyone thought that would do any good.

Anyway, I'm not sure there is a solid answer to some of the concerns, but I do find the discussion valuable from a moderation standpoint, because moderation should always have a solid base in the needs and desires of the membership. IMHO.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 21 Aug 2010, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Admittedly, which is why for most sites, such a forum isn't really practical. If it could be done, it would be nice, but you have to be really strict to make it work effectively. It is a great idea, I agree, if it can be done. Whether it can be done or not is better known by those of you who would have to actually administer it.

In order for that to work, I think there would need to be a rule about keeping posts on topic and the last time I looked there wasn't one. People have tried in the past to say that they are only interested in the opinions of other Christians, and most of the responses have come from atheists.

We do need more moderators here and it would nice to have one focus on PPR. If we were to get one, then everybody who had been avoiding the place suddenly invade, we might see some changes.

You'd have to worry if the current regulars would start avoiding it, then

I think that more often that not it is NOT appropriate to limit threads, but there might be times an exception can be made, and you've now got special rules just for that thread.

You could have a Faith forum of some kind for just discussing faith topics and leave the debates for the PPR forum.

I've been quietly lobbying for a PPR specific mod myself for a while, it's my thought that it needs to be someone who's familiar with the forum and how it runs that actually posts there regularly. I think problems have been caused in the past by moderators who don't know the players and the topics trying to treat PPR like any other WP forum, it needs a light touch to both function as a forum and not get too out of control. I thought Techstepgener8tion did a good job, but I think he got purged with the others earlier in the year even though he still has the mod tag.