What are you going to do about your insinuations against me?

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If you are going to present me being a troll, sockpuppet, or bully as fact, then the least you can do is tell me which one I am. If you do not have proof, then it is simply insinuation, and you have made clear your views on making insinuations against any member, no matter the justification.
I'm sorry to say this, but you are appearing to be an incredible hypocrite. You have deleted posts of mine where I've made insinuations against another member.
So, I ask you. What are you going to do about your insinuations against me?

I think that the above explains what I mentioned elsewhere but in different terms. Compare the above with



I think as the accusation has been made, it really needs to be backed, especially as it is made from staff.

"What are you going to do about your insinuations against me?"

Interesting thread title. From the disassociated context most people on here would infer it was the question posed by the OP (Butterflies). This is far from the truth though, is it?

In fact this thread and the thread title were not created by Butterflies.

Confusing? Meant to be confusing and murky I guess, and that is disappointing.

But maybe that is what Butterflies was after? Do you think that may be right?
Nope.
She says pretty pointedly that there is "at best" insinuation but that is generous. "Attacking the member" is likely a more realist interpretation and that is something moderators are supposed to police. If they attack they need to take responsibility for such attacks.
We all sometimes act against rational judgment.
If we do then we are responsible. Now my reading is that bring this up on public forum (where the attack occurred) is fair.
She did not attack back but called it best as she saw it and gave good account of herself why it was unfair. I backed what I saw.
She also stated that she is not up for tattling to Alex. She defended the accusation in the same place it was put to her and demanded a "OK you called it, back it or retract it" Sounds more than fair.
She did not say "What are you going to do about your insinuations against me?". I don't think there is anything to do with such insinuations. I think they are unfair, uncalled for and in desperate need of addressing.
Mind you I think the liberal recontextualising what was said and why is all of these things too.

I too have no real desire to contact or tattle to Alex. I don't think it is necessary nor is mature. It really has nothing to do with him.

So where is the context of "What are you going to do about your insinuations against me?"
I belief it is your question Lee and I believe that YOU are asking it of Butterflies and why I do not know? I thing that you need to address her concerns without, acknowledging her difference of perception or mine, without moving the conversation around the board in a game of musical threads, without editing her words, without starting threads with irrelevant thread titles.

I believe that you attacked a member undeserved and you have done her a disservice and the right thing to do is simply take accountability for the actions you chose and try to understand why you chose them.

You would police people on the same and have bought up the "don't attack people" ruling and yet did it yourself.

Understand it and accept it and work with this. No distraction, no misdirecting or downplaying and no questioning what she should have t do to resolve what is your issue to resolve.

This is fair and I think you are a reasonable man and as such know it. We ought not have to spell it out like this.

Fighting a moderator is like fighting a god. You can't win if the god won't let you win.

Just let it go and learn a cool lesson from this for your own sake even if you feel you were damn right about what you said.

As had been previously decided by moderators, the initial posts in this thread were moved to here in keeping with this note posted elsewhere:



Note: Since WP's "merge" button is out for repair at the moment, this new thread was made rather than merged onto the end of the link that had been noted.

Had the poster placed a subject line in the post now first in line here, that subject line would have been used as the title for this new thread.

Oh I don't see me as fighting with Lee nor moderators in general.

I do see me posing questions and asking him to back his behaviour and actions as he would expect of me, Butterflies, you and the rest of the membership.

I like Lee and I think hat he is probably wanting to have this resolved and struggling within the self imposed or imposed protocols to address these issues.

I am trying to say
"You probably know what you said is wrong and that things aren't presented by you in the way you meant. Perhaps your ability to communicate or comprehend what was said by whom and how and in what context has been a little skewed and you may have draw inference not meant.
At the end of the day you have found yourself in an unenviable position of having attacked a member in a way that you have implored us not to.
People make mistakes. It is a given. We do not expect mods to be perfect but we do expect accountability and a high level of accountability for their actions. If you choose to not moderate your own behaviour then we ought not pay heed to any want of you to pay others."

I could elect not to say anything. This would not do Butterflies, him, the moderation team or the board any favours, but I could elect not to say anything.
We could elect to let it fester and scab over, without resolution or healing.

My view is by calling it straight, with the least amount of vagueness or subtle innuendo is best. We are Aspies we need concrete. Call it fair and honest and right. Let the chips fall where they may.
Let a mod have it wrong. Let the mod in question search himself on the basis of honest questions to guide his search. Be clear and direct. Let it be understood.

Believe me I see this in non-fighting terms. Were I to see it in negative light I would just explode and call Lee bad names and pay him no respect to his ability to take responsibility, ownership and control of what he said and why. I haven't and that ought to be telling.

I don't think Lee is a bully and I don't believe he either meant to bully Butterflies or if he did that he probably feels bad about it and wants to have it resolved and is unsure how to do this and aware it gets hard to do just this the longer it draws out.

We all are aware of doing regrettable things and the awkwardness surrounding such times. I believe sincerely that this is such a moment for Lee and I get no joy at his plight and find his position unenviable and his actions distracting from the need at hand. In truth I see perhaps more awkwardness than anything vindictive but it doesn't mean that there is not a need that needs to be addressed by him and only him.

I think when I see people fighting with mods, it gives me a reputation about them. What I mean by it is it tells me what kind of mods they are. I can read the drama and decide for myself and what I see is Lee slightly abusing his powers. I am not fond of him removing posts or editing. Sure it's in the rules that mods have the right to remove or edits your posts but we would all assume that means if we break the rules. If we don't, we wouldn't be expecting them to do it. I don't think he even knows the difference between attacks on the person and attacks on opinions. That's PPR for you.

I have told TeaEarlGreyHot I "owe her one" in return for the call I made against her post, and I now see I was wrong when Butterflies nevertheless showed the same acceptance of a moderator's decision ... and for that, I do apologize.

edit to correct typing of "TeaEarlGreyHot"

Last edited by leejosepho on 20 Feb 2011, 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay. At least you can admit your mistakes and learn from them. That's all it matters.

Of course you are right, and your sugestion is the most sensible, with one slight problem. I do not simply FEEL that I am right. I AM right. It would be against my principles to simply retreat and allow Leejosepho to bully his way out of this situation.

And no. Lee is not a God. He's a naughty mod!

I'll try an summerize the situation into a few paragraphs for those of you who are wondering what is going on, and can't be bothered to read over lots of old threads, or find dozens of posts that have been deleted.

A member of this site, Iamnotaparakeet had been making homophobic posts that were drawing attention to this site. As a lesbian, I found those posts offensive and I joined the site to take issue with him. I did make several insinuations about Parakeets sexuality. Rightly or wrongly, I wanted him to try to make him feel as crap about sexuality, as people like him make gays feel. Leejosepho was constantly on hand to edit my posts, and quote the TOS at me, saying that insinuations were not allowed, and that attacks on another member are not allowed. Fair enough, I had made my point so I stopped the insinuations against Parakeet.

A while later I made this post:


I have highlighted the part Lee took offense to.

I was frankly stunned to get an accusing PM from Lee saying:



Now, I find it deeply offensive to be accused of hate speech for that statement, and I was, in my opinion rightly, angry at Lee over the accusation. Especially when he seemed pretty happy to overlook thinly veiled homophobic comments on the PPR board.

I then made this post:



Once again I've highlighted the part that Lee took issue with:



Obviously by now I was becoming extremely upset at Lees accusations, and I tried to tell him this in as civilized a way as I was able to at this point. His reaction, I'm honestly shocked to say, was to tell me how much I made him chuckle, and start throwing very personal insinuations at me, of the type that would have been instantly deleted if they were not made by a mod.



To say I that am deeply upset by this mans actions would be a major understatement. This is a great forum, with many great members, many of whom I know and have affection for.
Sadly though, the PPR forum is a very contentious forum, and this man seems to be unable to remain impartial. He is happy to allow blatant homophobia, as long as it's in the context of religion, but very quick to moderate any criticism of that religion.
If anybody with a bit of power on this board, and a little common sense, reads this then please, please do the decent thing and ask Leejosepho to refrain from moderating the PPR forum. I'm sure he's a decent guy, and I'm sure he has lots to offer this site, but please put him somewhere where he will cause less offence.
Clearly some boards are harder to moderate than others, and I don't envy anybody the task of moderating that board. Please let it be moderated by somebody with a bit more experience of moderation, and somebody who occupies somewhere closer to the middle ground.

Well I missed most of that the first time around. Probably because it was edited.
Lee? What are you doing mate and why?
This does not look at all good or consistent or fair.
Why Lee?

Ah, now you make me chuckle!


Nothing at all -- this task has been completed.


Perception noted.


If you would like me to help you sort things out, please just ask.

This is all just one big joke to you. Isn't it?

And, if you wouldn't mind, could you address the points that I've made please.

Last edited by Butterflies on 20 Feb 2011, 5:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

You have guy's have not given all the information here. In the first case, Leejosepho was objecting to the statement "God said it was wrong" rather than "they claimed that God said it was wrong", implying that religious people were homophobic. In the second case, he objected merely to the word "idiot", implying that a certain stereotyped group of people were idiots. I can sort of see where he's coming from and neither of his reasons have anything to do with being against gay or lesbian people even though you may disagree with him.

Note to all:

Alex has sent the following PM to me ...

My response: Not a problem, I will refrain.

So, my buttons still work but I will not be using them until further notice.

I could have coped with being asked to modify the statements. To have been accused of hate-speech twice was completely unacceptable.

TBH he, or you, have a right to not like either of the statements, but I do not think that they needed to be removed from the site. Surely you're not suggesting that any statement that somebody could take offence at should be removed.
I could go into the PPR forum now and pull out plenty of statements that I object to. Does that mean that they should be removed, and the poster accused of hate-speech?