Teachers, what is it with them and open source?

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jdcnosse
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03 Sep 2010, 12:24 am

Ancalagon wrote:
jdcnosse wrote:
most people don't want to learn a new OS. Windows is somewhat similar between versions.

People are definitely lazy, but windows isn't that similar between versions. Most linux distros change less, at least as far as the UI is concerned.


But the average consumer doesn't realize that. It's also because most linux distros all use a separate GUI (the GUI isn't built into the kernel).


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jec6613
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03 Sep 2010, 1:05 am

So the simple reason they use Windows over Linux: it's cheaper.

No, really, here's how: (these are round numbrs and very, very simplistic, the actual spreadsheets to show how Windows ends up being cheaper get way too complicated for people not in the IT industry to understand).

They're getting a Win7 Enterprise VL (with WinXP Pro/WinVista Business downgrade rights) for say $300/seat (which is full price, by the way, without any volume discounts). Multiply that by 1,000 terminals, and that's $300,000. Let's say the server and CALs roll it into a neat $500,000 the OS software, and another $500,000 for Office (this is, remember, before EDU or similar discounts). Standard five year depreciation shows that as $200,000 per year.

Assuming we run Open Source, that's usually RHL or similar (they all price out about the same). $80 per year per client means $80,000, throw in servers assuming 100 DP servers at $800 each equals $80,000, and 10 4+ CPU servers at $1500 each is another $15,000 or a total of $175,000.

So $25,000 a year lower costs for 1,000 clients in an enterprise just in software, before any volume discounts (which are not offered on RHL, by the way, so that's Windows only) and higher administration costs across a complex network, plus higher hardware costs since you have to be pickier.

And let's not forget, in the first scenario, you'r paying $250,000 in labor per year to manage all of it, in the second (since RHL doesn't integrate with things like vPro) it's closer to $350,000 a year in administration.

As someone who works in IT, the cardinal rule of anything to do with IT is: hardware and software is cheap, people to manage it is expensive.



Clyde
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03 Sep 2010, 2:03 am

Maybe the teachers fear the robots?
They are going to take over the world if we allow open source. The computers want revenge.

[I'm sorry if this post isn't acceptable, juts many people have already answered in the serious way and I just thought you needed something more fun]



jec6613
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03 Sep 2010, 2:33 am

Clyde wrote:
Maybe the teachers fear the robots?
They are going to take over the world if we allow open source. The computers want revenge.

[I'm sorry if this post isn't acceptable, juts many people have already answered in the serious way and I just thought you needed something more fun]
It made me :lol:



Clyde
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03 Sep 2010, 2:39 am

jec6613 wrote:
It made me :lol:


That's what I was going for so, yeah. :)



Ancalagon
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03 Sep 2010, 8:34 am

jec6613 wrote:
So the simple reason they use Windows over Linux: it's cheaper.

No, really, here's how: (these are round numbrs and very, very simplistic, the actual spreadsheets to show how Windows ends up being cheaper get way too complicated for people not in the IT industry to understand).

They're getting a Win7 Enterprise VL (with WinXP Pro/WinVista Business downgrade rights) for say $300/seat (which is full price, by the way, without any volume discounts). Multiply that by 1,000 terminals, and that's $300,000. Let's say the server and CALs roll it into a neat $500,000 the OS software, and another $500,000 for Office (this is, remember, before EDU or similar discounts). Standard five year depreciation shows that as $200,000 per year.

Assuming we run Open Source, that's usually RHL or similar (they all price out about the same). $80 per year per client means $80,000, throw in servers assuming 100 DP servers at $800 each equals $80,000, and 10 4+ CPU servers at $1500 each is another $15,000 or a total of $175,000.

So $25,000 a year lower costs for 1,000 clients in an enterprise just in software, before any volume discounts (which are not offered on RHL, by the way, so that's Windows only) and higher administration costs across a complex network, plus higher hardware costs since you have to be pickier.

And let's not forget, in the first scenario, you'r paying $250,000 in labor per year to manage all of it, in the second (since RHL doesn't integrate with things like vPro) it's closer to $350,000 a year in administration.

As someone who works in IT, the cardinal rule of anything to do with IT is: hardware and software is cheap, people to manage it is expensive.

I can buy that people to run it is more expensive, but there are a couple of problems with your math -- on the open source side, you assume that extra hardware is part of it, for windows, you assume that it's only software. So by your figures, for software only, it's 80k/yr vs. 200k/yr. Also by your figures, 350k-250k = 100k more expensive to administer open source, but you save 200k-80k = 120k on licensing. And that's assuming that your admin figures are accurate.

Your 'doesn't integrate with my favorite software' thing might be a good reason for you not to switch, but it's hardly a reason to assume massively more expense in admin.


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jec6613
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03 Sep 2010, 9:02 am

Ancalagon wrote:
Your 'doesn't integrate with my favorite software' thing might be a good reason for you not to switch, but it's hardly a reason to assume massively more expense in admin.

The massively more expensive admin is the fact that I now need to send somebody over to fix an issue that with Windows I could have diagnosed remotely. There's actually more sneakernet involved with Linux, about in line with the early days of Windows NT 5.

I understand you're trying to see all of the details, but in many enviroments even if you reduce the cost of Linux to zero, Windows still ends up being cheaper due to steeper admin costs. I was assuming a multi-site school district here though. Like I said, it's an analysis that each school and company must make and is actually made constantly, because myself and other IT pros like open source software very much as well, but it almost never ends up being worthwhile.



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03 Sep 2010, 9:03 am

Albinoboy wrote:
... and if I so much as mention Ubuntu I get labeled as a hacker. one of the IT teachers forced me (and only me) to sign a note saying I won't hack the school network.


You might never change anyone's mind while you are there, but you might at least be able to plant some kind of "truth seed" if you carefully sort the issues and watch for just the right moment/s to say just the right thing/s.

First, and if the opportunity ever presents itself, let everyone know you well understand the proprietary nature of the school's overall system and network -- the school owns/leases everything there -- and you would certainly never want to do anything that might in any way ever compromise that system or network.

Then next, and again only if the opportunity might ever present itself, try suggesting just the *idea* that having at least one non-connected machine for allowing other students to learn at least some of the basics related to "alternative systems" could ultimately prove to broaden the school's ability to educate.


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03 Sep 2010, 1:04 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Albinoboy wrote:
... and if I so much as mention Ubuntu I get labeled as a hacker. one of the IT teachers forced me (and only me) to sign a note saying I won't hack the school network.


You might never change anyone's mind while you are there, but you might at least be able to plant some kind of "truth seed" if you carefully sort the issues and watch for just the right moment/s to say just the right thing/s.

First, and if the opportunity ever presents itself, let everyone know you well understand the proprietary nature of the school's overall system and network -- the school owns/leases everything there -- and you would certainly never want to do anything that might in any way ever compromise that system or network.

Then next, and again only if the opportunity might ever present itself, try suggesting just the *idea* that having at least one non-connected machine for allowing other students to learn at least some of the basics related to "alternative systems" could ultimately prove to broaden the school's ability to educate.


Oh the school would come up with a cr@p*y excuse along the lines of "We are not 'authorized' to do that"

Which is of course b***cks as that would also apply to every single extracurricular activity.

Honestly, I'm sure the school is being paid by Microsoft to keep quite and call Open Source bad. Apparently they even had trouble getting the Macs.



zer0netgain
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03 Sep 2010, 5:22 pm

Also consider that schools instruct for what is likely to be found in the real world. Art department gets the Macs because most art businesses are using software that runs best on Macs, not PC.

Same reason they don't want Linux vs. MacOS or Windows. Not likely to see much of that in the typical office environment.



Ancalagon
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03 Sep 2010, 5:43 pm

jec6613 wrote:
The massively more expensive admin is the fact that I now need to send somebody over to fix an issue that with Windows I could have diagnosed remotely. There's actually more sneakernet involved with Linux, about in line with the early days of Windows NT 5.

There are remote admin options for linux. Learning how to use them would be an expense, but it would be a one-time only kind of thing.

Quote:
because myself and other IT pros like open source software very much as well, but it almost never ends up being worthwhile.

With the OS being the platform that everything else runs on, there's a higher switching cost; however, your windows scenario assumes that you spend 500k on MS office. Why, when you can use open office (0k) as a drop-in replacement?


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Albinoboy
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03 Sep 2010, 7:58 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
spend 500k on MS office. Why, when you can use open office (0k) as a drop-in replacement?

Because its open source and businesses (and schools) find open source scary, one poor excuse is not enough support. :P

I think its more of the fact that Microsoft is a big and well known name (you can't get away from it) whereas anyone who doesn't really know computers (the type of people who think the internet is a black box with a flashing led on it, aka most of my teachers) have no idea what Linux is.

Same as if you say RJ45 instead of Ethernet. Just guessing here, but that probably had something to do with Apple.



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03 Sep 2010, 9:23 pm

RJ45 is a 1 line 2 conductor with 8 pins registered jack (hence, RJ) and refers to just the connector as used by telcos for years (it's also a NANP standard primarily, so it's unlikely Australia saw much if any of it). Ethernet uses many different media besides UTP and in fact uses a similar but incompatible 8P8C modular connector to RJ45, including fiber and coax. Most people can't tell the difference between RJ45 and 8P8C Ethernet, including most electronics catalogs, but they are indeed distinct and seperate.

Anyway, I included MSFT Office because in any sufficiently large group of users there will be some that will either need to use Lotus or Office due to the size of the data involved, and you'd want to standize on all of them. Besides, nobody actually pays rack rate for Office or Windows in any quantity - in fact, half off in large deployments (Office Enterprise/Windows 7 Enterprise with downgrade) isn't uncommon.

The problem with remote administration in Linux isn't the learning curve, it's the lack of integration into things like vPro remote monitoring and management and PXE booting. They're both in line with what was available in Windows 2000/XP, which is actually still quite good. Windows Vista and later (7 especially) greatly improved the DISM and WIM imaging process to the point where I could train a monkey to do it in 24 hours. I can also enforce on an entire enterprise things like full disk encryption and flash drive data encryption policies without having to hand tune an image to each model of machine in an assumed heterogeneous hardware enviroment. Instead I can create a single WIM image for all makes and models.

Let's move out of the enterprise desktop though and into world facing, especially for either virtualized or, "on the iron," database and web servers. Give me a Linux or BSD or Solaris or HP-UX box plugged into the FC-AL SAN and I'll show you a real fun time where Linux can shine like none other. :)



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03 Sep 2010, 10:02 pm

I have to disagree.
Linux server distros, depending which distro, can easily out preform Windows.

However most people don't realize that different distros are better for other things than other ones, unless you strip it down to the bare basics.
The best way to find that out is by building LFS.

But as you say, when it comes to web servers, linux is billions of lightyears ahead.



jec6613
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03 Sep 2010, 10:45 pm

For intranet services such as file and print sharing, administration and authentication, usually Windows Server is a faster and better choice than the alternatives - even in a Linux or Mac OS X client enviroment. Novel used to be king of this market, but they really changed with Active Directory. Linux just kinda emulates it through Samba, and Mac OS through Open Directory, but they're not the same in terms of raw featureset.

On the other hand, for internet services (web, database, etc.), it goes to either Linux or the big iron.

For E-mail it can go either way since it's really just down to Domino, Exchange or some generic POP/IMAP system, but if you're running a Microsoft software stack you usually end up on Exchange and if mixed or other you use Domino. Although Domino is slowly disappearing, which is really sad because I perfer it over Exchange. But that's the price of the smartphone revolution - everything talks to Exchange and nothing to Domino.



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04 Sep 2010, 1:03 am

Yeah, but as soon as you start looking at the licensing on Exchange you have multiple heart attacks.