Being excluded. It even happens at the universities

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First off: I am a 19 years old boy , live in Norway and I am diagnosed asperger syndrome. I also have OCD, periods of depression (used to be very strong, but it's been way better the last years), strong anxiety, sleeping problems and eating problems. The last problem is party solved.

I started at an university this august to study sociology, which I had been looking very forward to, as I didn't enjoy highschool/college that much. It wasn't interesting, and I only made one true friend in 3 years. I just didn't fit in, but it didn't make me depressed. I've never cared about what's normal, about being popular or about what other people think about me at all.

But when I started at the university, I decided to take more social initiative myself by actually showing up to events, being less careful about talking to people I don't know and to show people around me that I am interested to get to know them. I decided to do this because I thought it could be good for me, and that it could prepare me for my career life that one day will come. The average age of the other students is over 30 years. It's been easier for me to get along with more ground-up people over the years, so I thought this was a good thing. From day one at the university, I was talking to the other students in a way I wouldn't normally do. I wasn't trying to act like normal, because I know I'm not, but I gave it my very best showing my interest in getting to know people. Most people responded kindly, but I did notice the same pattern as I did in high school: If I don't talk to anyone, they don't talk to me either. Why is that? I should be the reserved one. I have never understood.

There was many events around the school the first weeks that I planned to participate in. Unfortunately I failed to do so. It just wasn't anything for me. I could tell without even being there. An event is always a party, it seems. A party with alcohol/drugs and loud, sh***y music. People act so shallow at parties. It's so important for them to get attention, so important to be recognized. I hate it.

It's been a few months now and I have made 3 friends that I share interests with. They are all a little odd, but probably so-called neurotypicals. The problem is that when these 3 people aren't around, I am lost in this huge desert (the university is huge). I don't know where to go or what to do if I am to not be alone. I still try to talk to people in my class and I know the most of them by names. When my friends aren't around, I sit with someone else that I know. It's not a problem. I can talk to them. The problem is that they have other friends too that they show more interest in. As soon as the class is over, I just keep on talking to the person I was sitting next to, maybe asking if it's OK if I follow them (he/she (usually he ...), and the people he seems to be with). Of course they answer gently to such a question, but none of them to anything to make me a part of the group. When walking in the hallways, it's so hard for me to find my place. I constantly get pushed out of the formation. Why is that even? I am quite small (about 165 cm tall), but it's not that they don't see me or anything. Even when we get to where we are to sit, I usually end up with the worst seat, maybe I even have to ask if they can make room for me, because they just stick to their own formation, without giving me any attention.

For many people with asperger syndrome, I know that it is hard to keep eye contact with others. It was for me too, but when I got aware of these stuff after visiting different psychologists for many years (I had many reasons too), I started to use my eyes to communicate with. It isn't hard, although it doesn't feel natural. I no longer even feel that I'm talking to people if I don't look at them. When in a group, I look at everybody in the group when I'm talking, to make sure that they know that I'm talking to them. Although I have been told that I use my eyes in a weird way (can anything ever be right?), I do notice that people in the group becomes aware that I'm talking to them personally. I do the same if I meet a friend and the friend is with another friend that I don't know. Even if I talk to my friend, I look at them both, just to acknowledge the other guy or girl's existence.

It is my impression that other people use eye-communication techniques in a smiliar way, but there is one problem: I seem to be considered "not a part of the group", or "not one of those that are being talked to". It always happens. Always. Why does that happen? I know that they think I'm weird, but why don't they want me to feel better? It doesn't feel good to be excluded this way. It feels way better to be alone. That's what I've always preferred anyway. I now understand why.

I'm a bit depressed actually. I was looking forward to being treated as everybody else. I didn't think people at 30+ would let anybody be excluded in a class. I find it horrifying and it gives me another reason to lose hope in the humanity. I must say that I love the lectures and I find it very rewarding to me personally to read and study on my own after school, but it's very much easier to do well if you have a network of friends. I don't. Even though I tried everything I could. It makes me depressed because it's beneficial for me to be so much alone anymore. I love to be alone, but I also want a career, a few good friends and a girlfriend one day. It's so hard for me to see that I am not accepted in the world. I appreciate the friends I have, but it only solves one of my three wished I just mentioned. If I can't make in socially at the university, I am very concerned about my future working life. It's a shame, because I've always done very well in school and I feel that my talent could be useful to something.

Is there any hope for me? Do anybody feel the same way about anything I've described? Any tips on what I can do further?

Answers are highly appreciated!

This is a really complicated thing I'm trying to figure out myself - I have had similar troubles most of my life. (Still, I'm in my first year of college as well and I've just now gotten to the point of names. You still have some good progress.) I think that, possibly, it's a clique-y thing; The other two (or more) are not only more sociable, therefore connecting more, but appear to have had more experience with each other, often meaning that they have been friends before they met you.

I think the exclusion isn't meant in any sense of rudeness; It doesn't sound like that at all. It's just that... in a group of three, one has aspergers/autism/whatever and the other are NT's (Neurotypicals). The two NT's connect with each other more because they're both NT's - the fact that the other one has Aspergers, doesn't necessarily mean they have any ill thoughts towards him, just that to the NT's, they find it easier to talk to each other. Conversation flows more naturally, they have their similar thought process, etc... I think for them it just might be more difficult (kind of like a language barrier between two people who speak different languages) to speak to us.

I won't say this is a fact, but it's what I've narrowed this down to so far...

Thank you for your reply!

Yes, I agree. Noone probably dislikes me in such a way that they intentionally make me feel bad. I also think that it makes sense that the NTs connect with each other very easily and that they feel that there's a barrier between them and I. But I must say that I expect them to notice when someone falls behind, both in a small and a large group, and it shouldn't be hard for them to just do something to include me.

I have been into a thought that I hope isn't true. A stereotypical picture of an outsider could be that the outsider does not want to be an outsider and that he/she will stalk the first one who shows just a little bit of interest in him/her. This is typicals for cartoons, right? I've also heard jokes about this, seen Facebook groups dedicated to the "joke", etc. I don't know, but there could be something to it. Maybe only subconscious.

I visited Facebook after posting that last post and the very first status message was "Copy this to your status if there's a nerd sitting alone at the very back row in your classroom".

It wasn't meant for me, of course. But anyway, I don't know what to say ...

I got this being left out by the eye contact figured out. I think when a person looks only at one person( a friend) it's not to leave me out though it REALLY feels that way.. it's cause they feel comfort from the person they're staring at and it's more their personal hang up and I need to accept them for their flaws. As far as being left out or behind, I'm lost , at least your not alone here. It sucks, I know, I feel hurt by it and maybe I'm here talking and rambling just to avoid feeling that way. After all you can't walk away here i'll just pretend your listening ! ! ha ha ha ha (that's supposed to be the evil laugh of your captor) (dumb, i know)

They are not practicing host behavior, they are not drawing you out, which makes it difficult for you.

Okay, I would ask you give yourself the gift of considering largely skipping follower-ship phase and jumping to the leadership phase. It's a gift just to consider this. And it's not all one or the other, for effective low-key leadership often involves building someone up and sometimes involves defering to someone who has a lot of energy to run with something even if it's not exactly how you might do it.

I know in law school, people form study groups and distill information and then distill it down some more. So, you take complex wordy stuff and distill it down to an outline and then distill it down even briefer, trying to get to the main kernel, without oversimplifying of course. I suspect you'd be good at this. So, you could form a study group! So, pick a time before or after class and invite some people you judge to be among the better students.

Now, you are trying ambitious things socially. Going to a group or party by yourself is ambitious. If you're seen "Schindler's List," the part at the beginning where Oskar goes to the nightclub by himself. He sees which table has a VIP reserve, sends a bottle of champagne, the nervous waiter asks him who he should say sent it, 'Tell them I sent it.' Well, okay, look, Oskar Schindler has social skills easily in the top 5%, was willing to spend money, plus it's a chance, he might be able to pull it off, he might not. But then, the fact that he's trying to get connections for military contracts, that makes it much more understandable than if he was just trying to 'meet people.'

So, when you walk with the group after class, you could be one of the more outgoing ones, drawing other people out, asking them what kind of study group might work for them. Then you get your tea and leave, 'I've got to go.' That is, you keep it short and sweet.

A kayaking club, a hiking club . . . it's amazing how few people are doing the basic work of organizing things and amazing how receptive people (sometimes) are when you engage in the straightforward activities. And as far as formal groups at a university, I don't think it's something as crude and crass as people just wanting to pad their resume. It's rather at a pretty early stage they half resent taking on the obligations and their main focus shifts to discharging their obligations given all their other time pressures. So, someone comes in with energy to do activities, no, that is not viewed as a positive.


Okay, here's when you can help me. I attend bar poker several nights a week, it's free (points not money). People are friendly, they want to discuss poker, I don't. I want to discuss almost anything else, esp politics in an adult way, or sports. Well, I usually want to get more in-depth than other people. Then when I attend my Democratic group, people don't really want to talk. They mainly just want to attend and then go home.

My first year at a university (Fall '82 and Spring '83), I lived in an on-campus dorm. I met people in the dorm because we hung out in the afternoons and went down to the cafeteria together. We also watched football together, and there were other social interaction. Plus, being the beginning of a new academic year, people were looking to met new people.

The conversation was this loose moving from topic to topic with the internal censor turned down to medium-low (which I am in favor of!). However, sometimes good-natured joking blurred to kind of mean-spirited . . . and frankly I think even 'normal' people struggle with this kind of thing (people who have 'typical' social skills). Myself, I have patchy social skills. I have good social skills in some areas, and not so good in other areas. Now, every human being on this planet has patchy social skills. But I think my skills are considerably more 'patchy' than average, and for me, that is a defining characteristic of my having Asperger's.

There was also considerably more bullying behavior in the dorm than I expected, almost as if it was a throwback to junior high (ages 11 to 14). And in a way that makes sense, for these were guys who didn't know each other, and I guess this was primate behavior to establish social hierarchy (unfortunate, doesn't have to be that way, but common).

My second year, I lived in an apartment Fall semester, where I didn't really meet any new people, nor in classes. My Spring semester I moved into a private off-campus dorm, and then mid-semester, bought on on-campus meal plan. It didn't really work out. There was a lack of connection of going to the cafeteria with dormmates. Plus, Spring being the second semester of the academic year, everything wasn't fresh, people weren't that interested in meeting new people. Plus, this dorm seemed to have a lot of older students who already had social networks.

About the bullying behavior, I recommend
Tight, defensive boxing to a draw. One week.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt134616.html
Yes, straight up, I do. If you comes to it, you can fight someone your own size, and I almost prefer a draw because I'm not trying to humiliate someone, certainly not someone I'm going to have to see over and over again. Now, I personally have not had a fight since junior high. I am not big into fighting. I am not an advocate. However, just knowing a little boxing, and I'd like to know more, I feel kind of gives me a baseline of confidence where it's then less likely to happen. (And, very important detail, you don't want to take a bunch of blows to the head during training because the recent concern with post-concussion syndrome, most of that is true. And even a lot of lesser blows can be damaging. And football helmets don't really protect that much, and presumably the same is true for boxing headgear.)

Okay, hope it doesn't come to that, prepared if it does. On a more positive note, a person living in a dorm can become a positive leader who easily and matter-of-factly stands up for others. 'Okay.' 'Alright.' You're just deflecting the negative comments about others. And you're giving the person a chance to wind down and take their energy in another direction. And occasionally, 'He seems like an alright guy to me,' said easily and matter-of-factly. And the amazing part, it is much easier socially to stand up for others than for yourself! But the skills are transferrable. Standing up for others gives a person skills to easily and comfortably stand up for themselves. Plus, I think it plays well. You just get a reputation as a positive, constructive individual who stands up, both for others and for himself or herself.


Zolikan, I know we've gone a little far afield. But I wanted to include the above for other people reading who might be getting ready to begin college. The part with the bullying surprised me. College was not the mature environment I was expecting, certainly not across the board. And hopefully every place is like that. Part of the problem was that my dorm wing had an absentee 'Resident Advisor,' and then he was a bit of a critical, hostile 'leader' when he was present.

And by the way, I would be interested in how higher education works in Norway, where you're saying the average age of your fellow students at your particular university is over 30.

Zolikan

My first year at uni was particularly rough. What I can say though is that it gets better. During the early months people are all still developing their patterns; almost everyone will be attempting to sort their life out. People like you and me tend to take a while longer to do the same.

The people who are excluding you are probably still trying to find their feet as well. In a way they are acting like aspies; they could be jerks however, so be careful.

Over time it does get better, once the people around you start setting up the social rules then you have at least a chance of understanding them and therefor knowing where you stand.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer

I hate living in a dorm environment.

Thank you all for good replies. I really appreciate it.

It's interesting that some of say that you lived in doorms. I don't know it that's meant literally or that when you say dorm, you mean the same as a collective. At least I myself had the chioce to live in a collective, which I actually could have afforded. I choosed to be a commuter instead, living at home. I don't know that living in a collective would mean for me socially. It could have been good, because the people living there kind of have no coice but to interact with each other. I've heard good things about it, but I don't regret my choice. I like it this way anyway.

Who knows how things will work out ... At least I'll give it my best try to make it good.

AardvarkGoodSwimmer, I will send you a PM a bit later,

'



In life we aren't always looked at as nerds. Some people think that I'm highly arrogant and push me away for that purpose, which is the very contrary to the way I feel under the surface. If I'm alone in the corner, then at least I'm not having to juggle my performance for other people so that I can pretend to socialize in the same manner in which they do, all for their comforts sake of course.

Yeah, I don't think people with AS necessarily will be labeled as nerds. I would certainly, but I don't think being called nerd is an insult. Why I was provoked by the message, was because it's not cool to make fun of somebody that is alone because of the fact that they are alone. In this case, many would know who that person they refer to actually is.

There's an idea.

If instead of trying to make eye contact with everybody I just pick whoever I want to bond with the fastest at the time(preferably someone I can talk to) I'll make more progress than switching between people.

The exclusion - the distinction - is always and everywhere, but the Similars exist and can be found.