Everyone getting punished due to one person.

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27 Jun 2006, 11:26 am

To me, “punish everyone over one person's actions” is so flawed. This is one of the few things I get very angry over. Usually it's the people that are well known for causing trouble that the system is used on. I'll break this down into bold statements, with those being the things said by the one(s) who punish everyone for one's actions, with my replies below them. I didn't actually said those things when stuff like this happened. However, to me some things are worth standing up for, even if I get in a lot of trouble and don't win.

Life isn't fair.

Because you choose to make it unfair. There's other ways for me to learn how unfair life is without your stupidly.

I can't figure out who did it, so everyone pays.

That's right, punish those who don't even have any cases of ever causing trouble. Yeah, take the easy way out rather then taking the time to figure out who did it.

(to trouble maker) You ruined it for everyone.

What kind of BS is that? You, the teacher, are the one ruining it for everyone else, not the trouble maker. The trouble maker didn't decide for everyone to suffer, you did! Didn't it ever occur to you that maybe their doing this on purpose just to get a kick out of you punishing everyone else and seeing them suffer as a result of your actions?

(also to trouble maker) Maybe you will start caring more about your peers once you see how your actions affects them.

Again, sounds like total BS to me. Again, didn't you ever think about their likely doing this so you, not them, will punish everyone else? Some trouble makers will remain that way, ever thought about that? Your actions to punish everyone is affecting the others a lot more then the trouble maker.

As a result, I'm lowering everyone else's grades.

So my intelligent is related to how someone else acts?! Must... hold... self.. back...

Because of you, no one gets [special treatment, like treats or a field trip].

Must... resist... urge... to... kill...

I swear, this system is so stupid I don't understand how it came to even exist, yet alone exist to this day. I really cross the line in missing out on special events when the trouble maker will do it on purpose anyway, yet the teacher will punish everyone else for it anyway. But when this flawed system starts to get my grades lower... *insert much swearing and gun shots here*


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anandamide
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27 Jun 2006, 11:44 am

This problem actually happened in my daughter's grade three class about a month ago. My daughter came home, threw her school bag on the couch, sat down in a slump and said that the teacher was crabby all day and made "mean eyes" all day at the class because someone had stolen a box of chalk in her classroom. Also the teacher said that the class would not be allowed to go on a field trip because the person who stole the chalk had "ruined it all" for everyone else.

My first thought was to be concerned that my daughter is being taught by a moron. My second thought was fear that my daughter is being taught injustice and bigotry. Her entire class was being punished for the actions of one amongst them and that is how bigotry works. I was so appalled that I went to speak to the principal about this situation. The principal said she would talk to the teacher. A few days later my daughter came home and said with a smile that the teacher had decided they could go on the field trip after all because the class's behavior had "improved".....

I've taught my daughter why what the teacher did was wrong, and explained to my daughter that the teacher's sudden reconsideration that the class can, afterall, go on the fieldtrip, is really because it would not be fair if the class weren't allowed to go because of the actions of one person. I have explained to my daughter that her teacher's reconsideration came because of my intervention.

Hopefully, next year, my daughter will get a better teacher than the one she had this year. In all fairness the teacher she has suffered through this year has some good qualities. My daughter's math skills have dramatically improved. I am not happy with the values the teacher has tried to teach my daughter though, I have had to intervene and teach my daughter an alternative view several times this year.

And I actually posted about this on this forum when the incident occurred. I can't remember the suggestions that were made at the time, but I do remember that whatever advice I got really helped me to think clearly about the incident.



ljbouchard
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27 Jun 2006, 12:51 pm

This is a tactic used in the military all of the time. The idea is that the sergent is free from the concequences of the punishment because it will get all of the other parties angry and the guilty party and they will administer the punishment themselves (see Full Metal Jacket for an idea as to where this leads). I have noticed some school bus drivers where I work use the same tactic. I never did because usually, either my para or myself could figure out who did what.

Another reason it is used is because of the social rule of not being a tattle-tale. Most humans want fairness and to not be punished for the actions of someone else. The rule of the school playground however is to say nothing. The teacher is hoping in this case to get someone to squel on the trouble maker in private. Hear about this being used on the bus too.

I am not surprised that this tactic is used in the public schools. Our school system is after all modeled after the Prussia system which stressed blind obedience to make people prepared for the military. May as well get the children ready for the drill seargent now.


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wobbegong
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28 Jun 2006, 12:23 am

Punishing everyone for the actions of the one, is successful at getting "everyone" to prevent anyone (the one) from doing the wrong action.

Standard animal behaviour.

It's something they've done as psychology studies, usually undergraduate because they do their experiments on rats - because rats don't sue.

So you put a group of rats in a cage with plenty of room, food, water, all their needs are met.

You put a toy like a ladder in the cage, and if any rat goes on the ladder - you punish all the rats. Eventually the rats will attack any rat that goes near the ladder.

Nasty and effective. They should not be doing this to school children. They probably shouldn't be doing it to soldiers either.



ljbouchard
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28 Jun 2006, 7:34 am

It is effective (although there are side effects). I would not be surprised if this is used in prison too.

Why it is used is because it is effective and the person in charge does not have to make any decisions that involve actual work. That is the purpose behind the 0 tolerance policies in schools. Make it so that all the decision work is taken out of the principals hands. I have heard more than one comment "This is the policy and I have to follow it". What I really hear is "I do not want to look into this and see why it happened so I am taking the easy way out".


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doordoctor
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28 Jun 2006, 9:41 am

I have seen an example of this method while I was still in technical school, once we were buffing the classroom floor with a speed buffer and one of the student started spraying the spray buff solution at others, teacher warned and kid kept spraying and teacher had had it and sat us all down and read out of a small engine repair book and took notes like a "traditional" teacher does.

I didnt like the idea beucase:

1. I'm a hands on person
2. I was person that got sprayed with the floor buffing solution
3. hated seeing my favorite teacher mad

I also had another experiance of this on monday jan 3rd 2000, we all came back to a broken classroom door and teacher thought it was some student in his class. I was innocent because I was one always fixing it. teacher was then told later it was the municipal police department they did it the day before because of a bomb threat to that area of the school were the floor and building maintenance chemicals were.


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earthmonkey
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28 Jun 2006, 1:42 pm

When I was in grade 6, one afternoon during lunch my fellow sixth graders were louder and messier than usual (though I couldn't tell the difference; they were so noisy I think I've suffered hearing loss over the 6 years at that school). So, every sixth grader had to write the 6th grade standards (they were long sentences stating different rules), and the longest sentence was the one about respecting the cafeteria and not being too noisy--we had to copy it down 20 times or so, as I recall. We would write the following day.

I told the teachers I should be exempted from this, as I had barely spoken 20 words during all the lunches in my 6 years there and was an obsessive neat-freak who would never leave the table in any form of disorder without having a panic attack anyway. They said they couldn't make any exceptions, so I skipped school the next day (told my dad I was sick). They never bothered me about it.

Not quite as unfair a punishment as the one originally mentioned, as most of the kids were actually culpable and it wasn't an infringement by a single person. The actual sentence writing wasn't what bothered me (even though it would've taken FOREVER; it is difficult for me to control my hand for handwriting, which is why I didn't finish my essays for the AP European History test, which I'm certain I did poorly on consequently); what bothered me was the fact that I wasn't guilty of the noisiness and messiness and never had been.


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Iammeandnooneelse
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06 Jul 2006, 10:07 am

Ugh! Yeh, I hate that.

Mr Something (wheels were involved) once punished the enitre form for something one boy did (within visual range @ time too).

That was the day he started to be called "Meanie Wheelie" as far as I know, the nickname persists to this day.



Xuincherguixe
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09 Jul 2006, 10:00 pm

I think the best approach is to take it like this.

Because the punishment is so arbitary, it is meaningless. You're supposed to be upset about it, that's what the instructor wants.

So your grade goes down. Okay. Grades are pretty meaningless anyways.



doordoctor
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10 Jul 2006, 7:21 am

Iammeandnooneelse, maybe was the mr wheels guy in a wheelchair and had a personality problem or some bug up his butt?? maybe if so maybe he was struggling with some emotional problem.


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Captain_Brown
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11 Jul 2006, 1:28 pm

Maybe the teacher didn't know which student(s) did what, so I think it is fair.



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11 Jul 2006, 3:47 pm

Xuincherguixe wrote:
I think the best approach is to take it like this.

Because the punishment is so arbitary, it is meaningless. You're supposed to be upset about it, that's what the instructor wants.

So your grade goes down. Okay. Grades are pretty meaningless anyways.

To me their not. The idea of my grades being a reflection of someone else, along with a teacher deciding "I'm gonna make all of you suffer!" is what gets deep under my skin. How smart I am isn't a reflection of how someone decides to behave and how the one in charge decides how to handle it?

Captain_Brown wrote:
Maybe the teacher didn't know which student(s) did what, so I think it is fair.


In many cases the teacher does know who did it, but decides to punish everyone anyway. Either way, it seems like a very lazy way to me to punish everyone instead of taking the time to figure out who did it. I hardly see this as fair when others have to write stuff like the rules out many times or miss out on field trips because the teacher wants to punish everyone, even if s/he knew who did it. Also it's usually the same person that wants to cause trouble over and over and if they know the teacher will pull everyone down with him/her, the better.


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14 Jul 2006, 8:15 pm

That doesn't happen very often in my high school. In elementary and middle school, though, it was very common at lunch time when the aides asked for quiet and some kids didn't shut up. They would make everyone sit in silence for a minute before letting us go.


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CurbRider
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21 Jul 2006, 3:51 am

i've had this happen.

a kid threw a paper ball at the teacher, and the teacher kept us in during recess, so she's like, "if the person who did this doesn't speak up, everyone's staying in during recess, at their desks!"

my parents did this too. someone scribbled a marker on our new (and expensive) sofa, and we were both to be grounded until they found out who did it. I DIDN"T DO IT. I don't even use markers much less use them in the living room around the new living room furniture set.



deep-techno
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21 Jul 2006, 6:49 am

Once in maths in Year 8, we could have used graphical calculators, but since some people were being disruptive, we had to do times tables instead. :x


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