Advice: Where to go next

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I'm currently half way through this book, Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics, and I was wondering if anyone had advice as to what textbook I should study after I a done with this one. I intend to go to Technical school to get an actual piece of paper, but I want to know the subject as well as I can before I go. Any advice?


(BTW I intend this thread to be reusable and not just about my situation. )

Should I study this book next Electronics textbook ? Or should I just go directly to college? I'm considering this college Saint Paul College. As for financial aid, what do I do since the FAFSA says my dad should cover all expenses yet he won't cover any? Should I just take out loan after loan and have a big debt over my head?

My son was taking electronics at our community college but he realized that he did enough studying on his own that he knew more than what the class was teaching. He dropped out of the class and now he's getting ready to take a test and get credit for that class. It costs a lot less to just challenge the class and pass a test for credit.

I'll ask my husband and son what they think you should do about books and learning in a little while.

Does it help to get experience in the lab?

(This is Jon, Becky's husband.) I wasn't aware of that book, but from looking at the Amazon web page about it, reading the few comments, and getting a glimpse into the book (such as is allowed), I think you picked out a fairly decent book as a first step. I'm kind of impressed, actually. Seems good from what I've been able to see.

The book does look to me like it concentrates more, perhaps, on physical theory than about what you might see concentrated upon by a "technical school," though. Not sure, as I could only read a few pages of it. But it looks like the kind of thing more for someone looking to proceed beyond a one or two year degree that technical schools usually offer. Which isn't a bad thing. But this all brings me back around to wondering what you enjoy, who you know who can help you, and where you want to head....

I did take a look at St. Paul College and the majors they focus on, along with the classwork I could find there. It looks just about exactly like a typical community college here. Some such colleges will focus on certain areas (partly funded, and therefore directed to a degree, by business, often) more than others and St. Paul College offers only associate degrees, at best, and mostly on topics in business and health professions. From that, and from reading the details there, it appears that the electronics offerings are going to be rather modest and targeted at a fairly "low" level. I've spend some hours talking with the electronics course teachers at our local Clackamas Community College (which is larger, student wise, but on a general par with St. Paul College) in this last Fall term and they tell me that most of their students need VERY REMEDIAL education. One teacher I spoke with said that years back he'd started out teaching at a higher pace and had to repeatedly reduce the pace until he finally reached a pace most students could follow. I sat in on the class for a while and it was very, very modest. In later discussions, I was told that the highest level of course work offered addressed itself to a basic, single transistor amplifier and that was about it. That's pretty basic.

Community Colleges offering associate degrees are focused on the vocational aspects. This means being able to operate a voltmeter, for example, with some facility. Or being able to go find a particular resistor value. Etc. The kind of thing you might do, working as a technical aide (gopher) but not as a designer. The electronic courses at a community college usually belong to a category called EET, not EE. It's an EE education that moves you towards designing circuits. An EET education moves you towards being an assistant who can operate some equipment and find parts and assemble things, if needed.

I have also taught undergrad courses, myself, at Portland State University as an adjunct prof. The EE students (not EET) were quite skilled, by and large. A fair comfort with mathematics is required, including a willingness to learn and use complex numbers, trig, linear algebra, and some modest calculus at times (nothing more than 2nd order differential equations is ever required, from my experience.) This usually means three years, at least, of undergrad mathematics. More is better, of course. Also, in these days of microcontrollers, an electronics engineer needs to have a fair base of software programming experience even if they will hire programmers to do much of that work. I mention all this because if you are interested in getting into design areas, it really helps to know what strengths and hobbies you have and who you know that you can tap for helpful thoughts and some hand-holding, at times.

Okay. So I also gather that you are worried about the costs. (Me, too. I had to work my way through college as I had NO help from family in getting through it or in paying for books or living expenses. It was VERY HARD on me.) Financial aide is available. However, if you are under 25 (or maybe 24, I can't remember the exact line), your parents' incomes are considered in handing out grants. Possibly, too, with loans. But department chairs have told me -- especially in the case of community colleges -- that they may have some money sitting in their drawers for folks who just ask. So ask!! Go to the electronics department at St. Paul College, find the department head, and ask. Don't just go to the financial aide office. They don't have all the information, sometimes. Sometimes, there has been some special arrangements between the head of a department and some outside benefactor that the financial aide department doesn't even know about. So plan on visiting at least two groups. More, if possible. Also, search the web for your text books. You can often find cheaper offerings than what the college bookstore offers. (Textbooks are remarkably expensive, at times.) And it is also possible that there are other funds available that aren't tied to that "age 24" thing, so pick up any piece of paper that seems to relate to scholarships and grants and loans and read them. You might find something you hadn't expected and also that the financial aide folks failed to mention. There are also, at times, jobs as a tutor. If you can secure one of these because of some skill you have that other students need, you can defray some of your costs that way, too.

Let me know what you can do, are interested in, etc. I can add more when I know more about you.

Jon

Hello Jon, my name is Ben.



Well, the book is in-depth on some parts but simplistic on others. I'd call it more of an introduction. I just finished the second part of the book, involving AC, impedance, admittance, resonance, etc. and now am onto active components in part 3. In part 4 it is just a lot of flow charts and explanations. Mainly the book is developing concepts but includes some mathematics (around 2nd year algebra level, which is basically where I'm at.)



You mean about how it starts by explaining atoms? All intro courses I've seen, whether by Forest Mims or Alvin Evans, start that way AFAIK anyway.

My goal is to be an electronics technician. I don't know if I'm able to be an engineer and I don't think I'd be able to handle that kind of responsibility. I just would like to repair things and keep them working so they don't have to be replaced so readily.

Here is what I'm looking into: Electronics Technology probably the diploma option. Is this the same type of course your son is in?





That is pretty basic. Is that the extent they teach technicians? I'd probably what to pursue a lot more than that.



I'd actually like to build circuits, but for myself and not where it mattered for a company or people's lives. Repairing circuits or assisting an engineer would be something I'd like to do actually.



The best I'm at in math right now is Algebra 2 with some plane trigonometry and a smattering of single variable calculus. This is the textbook I'm going to be studying: Basic Technical Mathematics w Calculus. It has been a while since I've studied the math for math's sake, and truly that approach doesn't appeal to me, but in studying Apologia's chemistry and physics courses I've been able to keep a working knowledge of that math in my head. Is it only me or is mathematics without an application just plain boring; if I can't see how it is useful then I find it to be tedious, but if I work with the application then the math is much easier to learn.

Strengths? Well, my ACT/GED scores are here: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp1077006.html#1077006 I didn't do too well because of the mass of questions and limited time on the ACT, but I did pretty fair on the GED. If I'm given enough time I can do anything well, but if I'm rushed then I don't do so well. My neuropsychological report recommended that:



Hobbies? Electronics has been an off and on hobby since I was five. Most of what I've done is read books, but I've also assembled circuits from like the 300-in-1 breadboard kit from RadioShack and made a few modifications to circuits at times to see how it would change. One thing I tried to do was build an electric field sensor and then I was short one MOSFET from my parts list, oh well - it did work until there was a spark. Other hobbies I have are fairly non related, such as studying birds, etymology, ancient history, that sort.



I think it is 25 here. Do you think it would be wise to study on my own until then and go to college after I can apply for actual financial aid? I was accepted to Bethel University in 2005 and the school was going to provide $8,000 out of $25,000 for me to come, but that other $17,000 was still left hanging over my head saying, "I'm going to smush you!" and that didn't look to appealing then. Now, after five lousy fast-food jobs, I think I rather be in debt than working myself to death for next to nothing. I'm 22 right now, so I'd have around 3 years to study on my own before having to be in a classroom environment. Do you think that would be a good idea? Why or why not?



Can do (or have done rather): 2 years of each high school level chemistry and physics, algebra 1 & 2, Euclidean and Cartesian geometry (grade level 10), plane trigonometry, introductory calculus.

Interests: electronics, bicycles, birds,... but my goal would be to be an electronics technician.

I hope I have provided enough information and I thank you for your advice so far coming.



Ben

Nothing surprising in that content, I suppose. Electronics books for 1st year community college associate degrees will often include some material on analysis -- solving for node voltages and loop currents in topologically complex circuits -- which usually involves some matrix math (though it doesn't have to, as you can just play with setting equations or row-reducing to solve.) Does your book include something on this subject? (I checked on our local community college 1st year electronics course and the textbook definitely includes this in chapter 8 and 9 (about 1/3rd of the way in.))

I can't recall any 1st year book that doesn't do that. No, I meant also the chapter on magnetic fields I saw a few pages of, as well. I didn't get a full picture, though.

I think your goal is fine. Later on, you may find yourself interested in going further. But every path starts with the first step and once you get started, who knows where it will actually lead? Also, I'm keeping in mind your comments about money. Setting your sights on community college and absorbing what it offers is practical to start. You may make some good contacts there, too. And that may lead elsewhere. Just go with the flow and be open to options as they arrive.

Repair can require a lot of knowledge for some things, say doing it economically on a discrete part level instead of just replacing whole boards. Or it can be just a matter of not being afraid to open something up and look for "the obvious." So I don't know where that desire will take you. But I think that a course at St. Paul College on electronics will be a good start.

Yes, that's about it. He knows almost enough to challenge the first year (which includes the DC and AC theory), though. I'm making sure he is ready, but I don't imagine much trouble. The difference in cost is huge. I have to pay $40 for a challenged course. If he attends the class, it's $400. With three classes in the year, I am saving a lot this way. On the other hand, the class may cover some things and having a teacher to interact with can be worthwhile.

This brings me to another point I hadn't realized until this last term. The teachers at our community college are really good folks and quite adequate for the classes. In fact, I've been very impressed. In addition, the class sizes are smaller than at the University where I was teaching for a while. My class sizes were 65 or so at the University. That doesn't leave me a lot of time to talk with students or to deal with two-way interactions on specific points. At the community college, the material is quite similar to that of a University (it needs to be, for those students planning on transferring credits) but the classes are about 1/3rd the size. And that is a huge advantage, so long as the teachers are competent. And so far, I think they are. So with the lower costs, smaller class sizes, and roughly similar material to cover, I think folks are WELL SERVED by selecting a community college for their first year (or maybe two) even if they do plan to go through a 4-year program of some kind (or more.) I hadn't quite realized that, until just recently. So I am becoming an advocate for community colleges.

I honestly don't know much about the technician coursework. I only just this year started asking questions about it.

I am thinking about the idea of teaching a course or two, but have been asking other teachers there about the level of students they get. And it does seem to be the case that they are working with students who are not as well prepared, as a rule, as those attending 4-yr schools. So they admit they learned over time to "dumb down" the classes a bit. Honestly, thought, I don't really know.

I attended about 4 or 5 classes in the Fall to watch the students and the teacher and from what I saw there I'd have to agree that the pace is slower than a first year EE course on DC and AC theory at a 4-yr school would likely be. And the class size was just 8-10 students, too. If that had been a course I was teaching at a University and I was blessed with a class size that small, I'd have wanted to run the class much, much faster but then I'd also have been able to interact a lot more with the students so that they could better maintain a faster pace, too. So I suppose that is what surprised me a little. Having a small class means so much more can be done and yet, in the community college setting, the students attending the class are usually not as well prepared as they might be. So the pace must be set to fit, even with only a few students. More drill, drill and drill on the small details (such as just keeping the units straight when performing calculations.)

Well, building is important. In fact, that is where you certainly get started no matter the eventual destination. Given that you are interested in building and repairing, I think you will find the theory worth some time and enjoy applying it on your own. You may wind up a designer, you know?

Sounds like a typical IEP style suggestion. I think Lee (who is 21, now) also had a similar recommendation out of those working with him at the high school. (Looking back on my own life, I can see so much similarity in his level of autism and my own.) They are just asking the teachers to "cut you some slack," so to speak.

Sounds to me like you have a lot of what might be required for any electronics technician degree. So I am not worried. Also, I completely understand your point about boring math, too. There is nothing quite like having to control a drill press, for example, by pulsing the stepper motors... in order to learn in a deep and meaningful way some of the great value of sine and cosine, for example. It would be great if math were taught with courses on home construction and design, electronics, etc. Robotics, for example, is a great way to be "forced" into learning physics, math, and a whole lot of related ideas. And it is fun, too. Combine the practical with the theoretical. Just doing some "bathtub drain" problem doesn't cut it.

Anyway, I think you will find the technician courses just fine from what you said above.

Actually, all that is good experience. I think you may find the technician stuff a bit underwhelming, actually. And maybe you will want more. But get started there at the college. That's the first step. See if you can get comfortable with the pace and courses.

Boy, now that I don't know. At 22, I think you are nearing your thinking prime so I would not want to waste 3 more years on "biding time." If the costs are that worrisome there, you might have to wait, though. Out here, a full time term would be about $1200 per term, plus books. That's probably under $4500/year. A two-year degree isn't that bad, then. Especially if you can get some tutoring work in your 2nd year, for example.

I think you are probably over-prepared for the courses ahead, to be honest. But on the other hand, you may have small class sizes and the teachers may be able to pace the course work closer to your needs, too. So just get going, I'd say. Don't wait out the three years, if you can see a way to avoid it. I hope you can manage to start earlier, but I completely understand the difficulties, too. In my day, I just had to go hold down a job while also going to school. I did that by tutoring and taking on a regular part-time job as well as the 18-credit hour terms. It was NOT exactly easy. But I don't recommend that pace on anyone.

Hopefully, you will find a way to start soon and see how that first year goes. Revisit the idea, after you get that behind you. You will know a lot more about what suits you then.

Best of luck,
Jon

Thank you Jon. I'll see what I can do to start next fall. I really appreciate the help and encouragement.

Ben

You made it much easier for me, providing a lot of thoughts on your own. That helps me get a feel.

With Lee (and it would have helped me, too, years ago had anyone cared to try), I decided to attend the classes with him. I would avoid interfering in the class, of course. But I would talk with the teachers outside of class and we'd discuss some things. Lee's "issues" are that he is VERY LITERAL and does NOT read between the lines. If a teacher wrote homework up on the chalk board, and failed to specifically point to it and say "copy down this homework, #1 is due tomorrow, #2 here is due on Friday," etc., the Lee would probably not even know that homework was assigned, at all. (I was also much more literal, as well, at that age. It is only through long practice and lots and lots of personal failures and mental anguish that I've come to be "smarter" about things like this.) Also, he will NOT socialize. If a teacher asks that students "form groups" in order to work on a project or self-grade their homework, Lee will just sit there and not move and not know what to do. He will understand the words the teacher spoke and know that he should do something. But he has no idea how "people work" and cannot figure out how to make initial contact or proceed after that to work out a warmer relationship. So he will just sit there and fail. And feel bad, too. And then not want to go back. Etc. I know his pain. I've been there. I don't want him to go through it. So I attended with him.

I enjoyed talking with the teachers and I enjoyed talking with the special ed staff at the college, as well. In fact, we selected this particular college in large part because of my talking with other colleges' special ed staff and finding them sorely lacking in their embracing nature. This college had a great group of people and they were more than willing to help out, if they could. So that's why we picked it. Turns out, the teachers are great people there, too. So it has turned out, all 'round, to be a very positive experience. And after the first few classes, I just sat out in the hallway and let Lee be in the class entirely alone. And then, finally, I would sometimes stay home. Not often -- I still go most every day he goes -- but that is more just a matter of his knowing that I'm around should he need any help and not a matter of my being in the class, at all.

I also was able to impact one of the teachers in such a way that he is completely redoing his Winter class!! I had given him some of my thoughts about his class and he listened to me and made his own decision (he's been teaching there for 20 years, now) to revamp the next class in the series on the basis of our discussions. That was wonderful to hear, but of course I was also frightened that he was biting off more than he could chew, changing a class so soon before it started. But we worked together on it and I think it's going to work out. Anyway, that's the kind of experience I've been having there -- very supporting and very positive. So I am hopeful you will find a similar situation.

I don't know you, of course. And I've no idea what kind of support you will find with the teachers and others at the school. But I think that a community college may be a good thing to try as a next step.

Lee, my youngest son, was also home schooled for many years. We'd simply had it with the self-contained classes they placed him into, at school. Finally, we simply decided to remove him from school and teach him at home. We did that for five years before moving to a new area about 30 miles away in 2002. When we did that, we decided to try out the new school, reluctantly, but with a little hope. We started there fall of 2004, I think, without much expectation and just taking 'baby steps.' But over time, things worked out very well and Lee flourished. (The teachers, after some testing of Lee to start and comparing those results with his prior school record from years back, told us that we must be "miracle teachers" because of the marked changes in Lee since the schools last worked with him. But I work out of the home and just lay down on the floor with Lee and teach him for as long as he can stand it and then quit and let him do other things. I didn't really focus on teaching, per se. Just taking advantage of his interests, when he had them, and not forcing things on him when he didn't want it.) Lee didn't have enough credit hours to actually get a high school diploma, though. We'd kept him out, too long, and he turned 21 and "aged out" before he could complete the necessary credits there. But he got to take the classes he wanted and we had a good relationship with folks there, so the process was a big success as far as we are concerned.

You may find community college both easier and more difficult, each in their own ways, than home school. But I suspect that it will work out pretty good, if your college has a great team working there. With the right attitudes and skills in the teaching staff and their supporting administrators, etc., they can help most people succeed gratifyingly well. And at reasonable cost, too. They are great resources for a community and I hope you will find them as good as I've found ours to be.

Since you are thinking about next fall, to start, take some time beforehand and visit the place. Just walk around, perhaps, at first. Learn where things are at. Watch other people and see what they do and where they tend to go. Check out the pamphlets they print and take some home to read (the class catalog, for example.) Get a feel for the classes and which terms offer which classes. (Don't expect a "fall class" to be necessarily offered in "winter", as the community college may not be able to afford a first term class being offered every term of the year.) Most especially, if you can, talk with the financial aid folks -- more than once -- and also see about talking with a department head in the area of electronics or any other area you are considering some classes. Ask them directly about the possibility of aid, too. It may be the case that some department has a "sugar daddy" in the community who is willing to pay for part of your education. For example, a "red haired" and rich electronics guru might have decided to put up some money to support other "red haired" students taking electronics classes. If you happen to have red hair, you qualify! It can be as crazy as that!! Not necessarily, of course. But yes, weird things happen. And if you don't ask about it, no one is going to go searching you out to tell you about it. You have to just lay yourself in front of the department head and just say, "Do I qualify for anything?" They may take one look at you, see your hair and say "Yes!! I just happen to have...." and remove an application from their drawer. And if you don't visit them, they don't see your hair and don't know you are interested. So visit, and ask. Who knows?? The worst they can do is say, "no."

Also, if you go now, you will get a chance to see some of the teachers and if there is more than one teaching a class you want, you can get a chance to decide which teacher you'd prefer. Sometimes, if you ask nicely, you will be allowed to just sit in the back of some classes and listen, too. A lot of teachers I've met are more than willing to do that for you, but only if you ask them. So if you feel like it, ask and see.

Also, there are "advisers" that are often available in a community room area at the college. These folks are usually offered for "walk in traffic" so you can just drop on by and talk with them. Tell them about yourself and your interests and listen to them, afterwards. They may have some interesting suggestions you wouldn't think of on your own, too. And maybe some good ones.

Take advantage of the time you have before next fall. They are there for you and I think you will be surprised just how accommodating they can be. Let folks know if there is anything they can do to help and odds are that they will find some way to get you closer than you imagined, before.

best luck,
Jon