Refering to females as "ladies" is dangerous in workplace

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It would be nice if we had some influence over what people think in the real world. We could get people to stop beating their kids or voting Republican.

The problem is that the term "Karen" is now a slur against any middle-aged woman with any complaint. Indeed, by the time I became aware of the term, it already had that meaning.

More generally, there are similar problems with just about all non-literal language used in a political or socio-political context. Such words inevitably become rhetorical footballs, with meanings that inevitably mutate rapidly, and they soon become generalized slurs or snarl words. (For example, once "woke" got popular, it quickly became a right wing snarl word against any and all concerns of any marginalized group.)

Whatever behaviors you are objecting to, IMO it's best to describe them using the most precise and literal terms possible.

Trump is the ultimate Karen

https://www.salon.com/2020/05/31/trump- ... n_partner/

My understanding of the term has always been that a Karen is a Gen-X woman with a sense of entitlement, who might say of herself that she has "high standards" with little tolerance for what she feels is poor service, be it from waitstaff or shop personnel, the stereotyped behavior being to ask to speak to the manager when dissatisfied. So I see this as more of a generational issue than racial, although the stereotype is more that of a white woman, but it wouldn't have to be. The target of the Karen's wrath could be any ethnicity but usually young. Gen-X had much better opportunities when they were that age which explains the anger and why this has become a thing. Also Karen is a typical Gen-X AFAB given name.

I've been reading up on the history of the term "Karen":

- How the name 'Karen' became a stand-in for problematic white women and a hugely popular meme by Rachel E. Greenspan, Insider, Oct 26, 2020.
- Karen (slang) - Wikipedia
- “Karen” Isn’t a Slur—It’s a Critique of Entitled White Womanhood by by Rachel Charlene Lewis, b***h media, April 10, 2020.

That last article says:

I also came across this Twitter thread, in which a writer with the pen name of "Caffeinated Living" says:


My thoughts: It may be "efficient" as long as it stays within the African American community, but it ceases to be "efficient" -- and becomes a confusing socio-political football -- when it finds its way into the larger world and gets picked up by white people, outside of its original cultural context.

Terms whose meaning is more poetic/evocative than literal do not translate well across cultures, or even across subcultures.

If nothing else, learning about the history of the term "Karen" -- like learning about the history of the term "woke" -- has been an object lesson to me in what's wrong with cultural appropriation. White progressives, liberals, and moderates really need to stop borrowing non-literal AAVE terms -- especially ones with socio-political import. Borrowing these terms has done none of us any good and has done a lot of harm.

IMO when discussing political or social matters in a multicultural context, it's important to stick with precise and literal terminology.

I've known about the existence of the slur "Karen" since 2017 when the subbreddit "f*ckyoukaren" was started. It was not originally an AAVE term, the "whites" did not appropriate it

Wasn't the subbreddit "f*ckyoukaren" started by a guy harassing his ex-wife who happened to have the real name Karen? If so, that sounds to me like a separate phenomenon from the more general "Karen," which seems to have had earlier origins as far as I can tell.

Correct, but it quickly evolved to people posting entitled women acting out (and calling them "Karen") as is such with the internet.

The common denominator is that it's a pejorative used solely against women.

The subbreddit got into trouble around 2020 for members doxing "Karens" as it had turned into medieval witch-hunting.

Hopefully, linguistic historians will eventually be able to settle the question of exactly where, how, and by whom the original "Karen" memes were created, and for what purpose. In the meantime, according to What does it mean to be a ‘Karen’? Karens explain, Guardian (U.K.), 13 May 2020:

Emphasis mine.

The above paragraph also contains links to the following:

- Karen - Know Your Meme
- "Speak to the Manager" Haircut - Know Your Meme
- Ten years of Black Twitter: a merciless watchdog for problematic behavior - Guardian, 23 Dec 2019

Yes, hopefully linguistic historians will settle the debate one day

As for your emphasis in bold regarding 'Can I speak to the manager' being born of Black Twitter, the Know Your Meme websites says it started on Reddit yet again, The Guardian knows not what it talks about

I noticed that too. ^ The sources have differing explanations.

The Guardian article was published in 2020. I wonder if perhaps the relevant Know Your Meme entries said something substantially different back then from what they say now. (At some point maybe I, or someone, could check this on the Wayback machine.)

Be that as it may: I agree that the "Karen" meme is definitely misogynistic as it is used in a white-dominated cultural context. It may or may not have had a different meaning as used within the African-American community.

^^ The Guardian obviously used 'Know Your Meme' as a source and appeared to have added a made up a fact about Black Twitter to fit the writers narrative.

It is not without irony that Karen Attiah claims the meme is "rooted in black American internet culture," and "To try to hijack the meaning of the meme is “a pretty Karen thing to do”.

At least we have some common ground there.