An Aspie lost in the sales world!! ! ie I'm a stockbroker...
Hello, I think this is my first post but I wanted to share my experience. I am 32, male, and I have ASD (Aspergers). Luckily through a variety of coincidences of my life experience and how Aspergers effects me I am fairly employable. I have a high IQ, having "passed" the Mensa test. I have after many years learned to dress myself. Wearing a formal business suit everyday as a "uniform" is helpful. Growing up I learned to be quite when people who I don't know say stupid things or stretch facts. Learning is extremely easy if I am interested in the subject. I can learn almost through osmosis, simply exposing myself to the information I need to learn. I'm an avid DIYer with skills in computers, auto mechanics, investing, carpentry, woodworking (ie building furniture), and a smattering of other things. The single most important event though was marrying a social genius who works with ASD as a para-professional in a school setting. She is a wonderful woman who diagnosed me with ADD and Aspergers. I have an official ADD diagnosis which I got at the age of 27 iirc. My ASD is not yet diagnosed professionally but I intend to in the next month so that my insurance will cover speech therapy. The most noticeable symptoms I have are; a seriously delayed auditory processing issue, the inability to "read" others, a giant apathy towards other people, social anxiety with strangers especially when making calls to strangers, and an inability to understand sarcasm. I lack emotional responses of a NT and I haven't the foggiest how to respond to emotional outpouring. I'm horrible at math though I understand mathematical concepts fairly well. I have been a programmer/IT support, an automotive "helper", worked in retail, and a FEDEX driver prior to my current career.
I graduated from college in 2007 with a BS in Business admin with a focus in finance. The genius thing really didn't help me much as I did not yet know I was ADD and ASD. I never studied and had a hell of a time doing homework. I managed to graduate with a 3.0 after 7 years, 3 schools and 2 different majors. It ended up taking almost a year to find work in my current career. I work for one of the largest asset management company in the US. They do 401k's, 403b's, retail investing etc etc etc... They are one of the big ones. Anyways in Oct 2008, right in the middle of of the crash. I started in the call center answering 401k and then 403b calls. I was pretty good at this because I was genuinely interested in the work for awhile and I have always been good at my word with excellent follow through. My co-workers ranged from shaved monkey's to other reasonably intelligent folks. My managers were generally pretty bad. I'm not sure it was their fault but it seemed like everyone was being managed to the lowest common denominator so that they could hire the most brain dead people they could. After 1.5 years answering calls I moved over to the retail investing side (IRA's and brokerage accounts).
It was in this role that I started my journey to understanding myself. After having several tiny errors in a few months my wife insisted that I get diagnosed for ADD. What a godsend that was. Adderall is a miracle drug!! ! My career took off like a rocket. I was promoted to a very prestigious position working with clients on our international trading desk. It was a marvelous positions other than the pay. Trading on markets around the world was exhilarating and incredibly interesting. At the 3 year mark I moved out to our branch network wanting to become a financial advisor! I had fallen in love with the concepts of investing and risk management in college and couldn't wait to bring my brain to the everyman to help them invest sensibly. Hahaha, I was so naive.
So in the branch network I initially excelled. I have excellent customer service skills. When I learned in college that I was smarter than most, at least measured by IQ, I had taught myself to coddle and not hate ineptness. In any case I was promoted in 4 months to a sales support role. Luckily I found a nitch in the role that allowed me to avoid my true job, which was endlessly calling clients trying to set appointments. This gave me anxiety to such a degree I would just sit, anxiously trying to force myself to make calls but instead my brain found every possible way to avoid my job. I spent my time scrubbing through books of business looking for opportunity and doing cost basis projects for clients. This was suffecient enough to mask my issues making calls. I was able to support sales activities using my abilities to work with massive amounts of data and through top notch customer service. 8 months later I was promoted to an advisor role. I was ELATED!! I was there!! ! I had doubled my income every year since I started with this company and been promoted 7 times in 4 years. I seemed destined to rocketing off to a huge 6 figure income with a book of clients who adored me. Unfortunately that was not really the case.
What you must understand about most "financial advisors" is that they are really simply salesman. I work with people who have no degree and hardly understand what they are selling. I supposed this is common anywhere you find sales jobs. You are supposed to connect emotionally with clients, ask them questions to help them "self-discover" why they want to buy what you are selling. LOL! Really!! I had no idea what I had been striving for all these years since college. I started finding issues in my inability to small chat, my seeming inability to communicate in a way that leads clients to the goal. I was able to make it into the top 20% ranking for about a year and a half through being a subject matter expert. I also come across to people as an incredibly trustworthy individual, highly professional, and exceptionally intelligent. However this is NOT enough in the sales world when many of your clients are quite, well.... dumb about finances.
Over time the role has seriously dragged on me. There are many negatives, and some positives. On the downside the constant acting it takes to communicate with people is totally exhausting. If I have 4 or 5 appointments in a day I am totally exhausted. I often misread what people say and I'm constantly running into people who use sarcasm or make jokes that I don't catch on to. The worst is probably watching people make the worst possible decisions when investing their money. I have found that many people will trust a neighbor, friend, or family member above a professional.... Ohh yah, my brother, a plumber, says I should just buy company X, Y, and Z. They will take advice from people who have NO CLUE how to invest in a "correct" way. This is pretty hard to manage because I HATE confrontation which is absolutely necessary for these types of people. They also asked for what I have termed a purple unicorn. You know, all they want is 10% per year, with no risk, no loss of liquidity, no lock up (ie CDs), and absolutely 0 effort on their part. This simply does not exist... Many clients will become overwhelmed when I try to get them to understand the most basic of concepts like covariance. Rather than asking for an opinion or just making a decision they do nothing, always to their own detriment. Many investors are incredulous towards me (and other brokers) or are just totally fine with the dumb/stupid/dangerous/laughable strategy they think they are deploying. It's all very tiresome and I am currently looking to combine my IT and finance skills in a new career of project/product management. Unfortunately due to my very nature I've never taken the time to seek out roles where I manage others or lead projects so this may prove very difficult.
To make a very long story short, sales in no place for an Aspie. However I have advanced an incredible amount in my ability to socialize with strangers, especially for someone who struck up his first ever conversation with a stranger at the age of 18. My communication skills outside of work have improved to the point that I can completely mask my negative aspie traits, even in front of people who understand what ASD/Aspergers is. I am incredibly thankful I took the road less traveled for an Aspie as I feel that I have developed some of the social skills that are required to make it big in the business world, or perhaps fake them well enough to get by.
I am happy to answer questions if you have any. My writing style is normally very stream of consciousness and I find editing my own writing literally impossible so hopefully if you took the time to read this your head doesn't hurt.
auntblabby
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Joined: 12 Feb 2010
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To the thread author:
If I'm reading the timeline right, you've been in the retail sales field for.....2 years? From what I've seen of those I've met over the years in the financial industry, things will get easier for you in the next few years as long as you can build a book.
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Our first challenge is to create an entire economic infrastructure, from top to bottom, out of whole cloth.
-CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Centauri Monopoly"
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (Firaxis Games)
The book will help as I'll be able to narrow my clients down to those I can communicate effectively and those who will listen to my recommendations based on trust. However I work for a firm where I don't own the book once it's built. They basically hand feed you clients. It's great because I'm already making very good money but on the down side I don't have any control over the sales expectations. It's a rough job even for the NT. Long term I need to break out and be independent or find a new career I think. If I went independant I would find a trust NT partner who prefers the job of prospecting and selling the clients on our services to actually managing the assets, operations, and compliance, I would have to be able to trust them enough to divulge what it really means to have ASD so that we could split work duties based on what we are good at.
Always a touchy and exceeding complicated question, "who owns the client?". There are enough recent writings on that subject to fill a "dead tree" library.
As far as a partner goes, it's conceptually difficult to set up and maintain situation going where you have the "rainmaker" recruiting clients, and you in the "back office" running the shop*. The money in a commission-based environment is on the selling side, more than a few people out there would see it as "Anyone can run an office, and I can go to 200 companies to set up my portfolios and asset allocations", and that might not work out on your side.
* I realize that's an oversimplification of what you wrote, please PM me if you're interested in my thoughts on the subject.
_________________
Our first challenge is to create an entire economic infrastructure, from top to bottom, out of whole cloth.
-CEO Nwabudike Morgan, "The Centauri Monopoly"
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (Firaxis Games)
My wife got a large inheritance and decided to get a financial planner. Sorry I forgot the acronym, but the short of it is, they make a sliding percentage of the gross assets. Certified Financial Planner? The bigger the gross grows, the more money they make. No sales commissions. They hold the assets in Charles Schwab and manage it.
My point is, maybe you could get a job at a place like that.
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You have some interesting tidbits in your original post. The first being, your wife. Gosh I would think that if you were a woman that knew alot about ASD and worked with them all the time, you would stay away from them. Then this Adderall stuff. The first time I heard of Adderal was on the reality TV show 'Big Brother" at least one if not two of the contestants were taking it last summer. Now I have an internal debate about whether I should seek this out. I had a bad experience with a doctor giving me all these prescriptions for various symptoms when it turned out it was all allergies. Stay away from the things that cause the allergies and BOOM the problems go away. Another incident too, but jeez I need to get back to work.
You are correct Michael, that is the type of shop I intend to head for. I'm working on my CFP (certified financial planner) right now. Once I have it I should be employable in that environment. They are called Registered Investment Advisors or RIAs. If an RIA gets big enough they tend to separate sales from relationship management. You still need to be able to connect to your clients on an emotional level though. It is easier in an environment where you have a set book of clients though. Right now I have no set group and I am expected to connect emotionally with clients 15 minutes after I meet them. My only plan right now is to practice, get speech therapy and do my best to fake it.
You have a great story. Kudos to you for surviving in such a high powered sales environment. I can totally understand how it gets so exhausting extremely fast. Since you probably have more experience than most other aspies let me ask some advanced questions in regards to communicating with others:
1. What are the key things you remind yourself to do in an important conversation? (e.g. tone, waiting for them to finish, smile etc)
2. How do you save a conversation when it starts veering into the awkward zone?
3. How do you respond to the jokes/sarcasm, after when its clear you didn't understand it?
4. When someone gives you some great advice - how do you respond? I always find it difficult to balance my response and its either overly thankful and a bit fake, or understated and too muted
5. Any other high level advice on communication strategies in the business environment you've picked up in your career
Product / project management definitely sounds better than pure sales most of the time. However, there are still cons. One of the biggest, and least obvious negatives of the product or project management role, vis-a-vis financial advisors, is that, while being a financial advisor you can quickly build up a strong body of knowledge and become a subject matter expert simply from reading alot of publicly available material, a project/product manager needs to get most information from other people. This means maintaining relationships and having constant and reoccurring conversations with many others in the business. In addition, much of the information that you require for this role - understanding of different processes, controls, roles, requirements - isn't even based on some external logic (e.g. like how markets finance is based partly on capital markets theory) - it's usually based simply around someone stating something is so, or else is based around the dynamic created through the conflicting interests of various parties.
I think its definitely possible for an Aspie to enter a product/project management role, and it may be more suitable than pure sales, but I just want you to keep in mind of the negatives.
Also, have you considered targeting Aspie clients? I always feel that there may be a potential niche for an Aspie to act as a financial Advisor to other Aspies, especially to those who've made money in the tech sector.
goldfish21
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I skimmed the OP.
I've done sales before. Then there was a lengthy period where my AS symptoms were strong and I wanted NOTHING to do with a sales job AT ALL and declined to interview for some sales jobs I was offered. Currently, I don't work in sales and am enjoying just doing physical work and learning how to do things I want to know how to do. Eventually I'll end up adding more sales work into the mix again as I'm kinda ready for it again. I don't want to pursue a full time sales job, but rather to do more and more of my own contracting work as the years progress - which you have to be able to sell your service. It's more likely that I'll bar tend part time again vs. jumpy into a sales role as a day job again.. but I will end up doing some sales/service again.
As a side note, I have an ASD friend who bar tends and forces himself to work social service/sales jobs in order to improve his abilities to cope with dealing with people. An.. exposure therapy of sorts, you could say. It seems to work out quite well for him.
Also, my twin brother has been doing inside phone/internet sales for over 8 years now. Like you described, he gets by well being a product expert.
I agree that sales jobs are not for those experiencing strong symptoms that make them too stressful. But with minimal symptoms, I see no reason why we can't do some sales work if we want to. I wouldn't say it's a blanket," "no sales work for Aspies."
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I agree goldfish, I have been able to achieve a relatively high level of success in sales through being a subject matter expert. Up until this half I have always been ranked in the top 20% of reps in my market. However with the current conditions I need to supplement my regular lead flow with prospecting among local clients. Dialing someone unannounced and convincing them to have an appointment is well... stressful, anxiety filled and totally ineffective. I would do better in a long term client relationship so that the trust can be built and the clients tend to listen to my recommendations more. Unfortunately in my current role I work with whomever walks through my door. I'm then supposed to be able to connect emotionally and progress to a recommendation all in one appointment of an hour or two. That is an issue if the client is totally clueless or unable to understand simple financial concepts. An NT who has sales skills can drill down emotionally and sell the product as a solution to the emotional need. This is obviously an issue. I am currently working on getting diagnosed so I can get speech therapy. I'm hoping some speech therapy can help me with my emotional intelligence and questioning skills. It would be great if I could improve my auditory processing skills too. I constantly say "what" before I am able to process what was said.
goldfish21
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
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If you're Truly intending to improve yourself in order to be better at your chosen career & live a better lifestyle for it; read the thread in my signature to see how I've been improving myself over the last couple of years. Some here think I'm full of s**t, but I swear it's 100% true.
On the work/finances end of things, even though I have a business school education, a few years ago I was functioning so low that I was lucky to make $150 in a month and was not having a fun time of life. Fast forward and I've been back to work since last Spring, moving on & up a couple of times to better jobs once previous projects were complete. My bankruptcy discharged in September and I had a few hundred dollars to my name. I'm currently up $16K+ in cash/stocks & growing because I've been functioning high enough to work my ass off and save everything I can. I'm not doing very lucrative work at the moment, as I could always go back to bar tending and make way more, but the work I'm doing is getting me into better physical shape and I'm gaining knowledge/skills for future business plans.
Anyways, I've gone from completely f****d to working & living a much happier, healthier, wealthier life and how I've reduced/eliminated my symptoms is all in the thread in my sig. Feel free to pm me about it if you like.
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