daughter recently recognised as possibly aspergers!Racist?

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utherdoul

Thank you, She has never read alot. The only thing she is interested in is Celebs although she was quite fixated on the Simms games at one time. She is extremely clumsy and has broken her ds and many mobile phones. I may be worth a rethink on getting a new one as she seems more able to look after things at the moment.

She is watching My Gysy wedding' as we speak, she tends to like reality but the the reality is her fantasy, is it not?


I am tearful, she has just told me that she really does not love me. She can not see how Im struggling and the effort I am putting in to her. She sees me as the contoller and would leave tomorrow if she could. I am trying not to take all this personally.

Today I am weakened. Need to work hard to keep the old chin up!

cloudy, one thing to keep in mind is that autism makes communication really difficult, especially emotive words like "love," and "hate," which are kind of nonspecific if you think about it. Somewhere here there is a thread about the word "bored" that illustrates this point. Your daughter may be trying to tell you something, but the meaning you are taking from her words may well be completely different from what she intends to say.

That being said, "I hate you" or "I don't love you" are perfectly natural things for angry NT teenagers to say, too. It stinks being a parent sometimes. I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time.

Thank you Mom,


I Think Im struggling as the whole thing has been so enlighting. First you have a difficult child and then you have a monster and then you consider Aspergers. I am hoping that it wont be the only thing that occupies my mind as it is wearing me out. The good bad and the ugly is swaying through my mind and I have certainly gone through some rollercoaster set of emotions in the last ten days.

All that said, last night was awful but I do think my D has learnt by it and she has, although she doesnt like it, accepted the three little rules I have set for her to achieve freedom on the laptop tomorrow.

It seems she is vunerable and has become 'entertainment' to so called friends! They know how to cause her to spin into a tizzy and they enjoyed how disrepectful she was towards me. I have talked to her more today than I have in a while. I have said it as it is and that I will not accept distrespect from so called 'friends'.

I dread to think what may happen next as I am trying to give her space to learn that they are really not worth her while and that its ok to not fit in. I have talked to her more today about the possibility of Aspergers and that she can use it to her advantage, she does not have to be like them.

Thanks thanks and thanks for all your support!

Regarding racism in particular:
1) no it's not typical; actually, some sites suggest aspies are less likely to be racist (because of not internalising conventional prejudices)
2) yes it can happen (usually because the aspie is misunderstanding communicative codes different from those s/he is familiar with as hostile)
3) it is also possible that it's a socialised idea which has been inculcated through trying to conform to a particular milieu in which these views are widespread. Some research suggests aspies are as likely as anyone else to pick up prejudices widespread in their social milieu.

When an aspie hates, it usually comes from fear, and fear usually comes from inability to understand, which can make difference seem threatening. There's all kinds of ways this could be dealt with, ranging from the study of specifically Asian speech-codes to exposure to positive influences from supportive Asian individuals. In order to figure out the problem, you need to figure out what makes (certain) Asians hard to understand for her, and why she is mapping this onto Asians in general.

But I think there is a much bigger problem here. I can see the authoritarianism in what you say – you speak of 'ruling the roost', of 'consequences' which 'must be faced', of her needing 'control', of 'disrespect' and what you will and won't 'accept' and so on. THIS is what is destroying your relationship with your daughter. This is what's making it impossible for you to get past blockages.

You are applying an inappropriate disciplinary frame, thinking in terms of a power-relation, and this involves discursive violence against your child. Applying this frame makes it impossible for you to recognise her needs. This in turn makes it impossible for you to negotiate the problems she's having in ways which minimise instead of escalate conflict. You need to get out of your head all the authoritarian things you've learnt about child-rearing, for two reasons: 1) they're NT-centric and don't apply to aspies, and 2) they are in many cases inappropriate anyway. You just need to get it out of your head. It's a flat-earth theory in relation to the problems you face. Cast it from your mind. Forbid yourself to act in this way, through this frame.

You are learning that you have to loosen the control, to stick to a few strict rules or else she'll be in permanent meltdown – that's a step forward. But you are still thinking inside a frame which doesn't work for your situation, and you are making a big deal about small things. So what if she swears, spits on the floor, gets up at 10.30? Quite frankly, if you're having violent incidents then that's what you need to avoid, even if it means putting up with the other stuff.

For starters, many aspies do not understand guilt-based reasoning. They don't have that part of brain functioning, because that part of brain functioning is based on a sense of identity which is linked to social status and to how one seems to others – it comes from social reasoning. Many aspies are literally incapable of learning from these kinds of experiences. Most aspies have our own moral codes which we stick to rigidly – too rigidly for NT tastes. These are based on absolute refusal, not the relativity of guilt. Usually we internalise these based on being reasoned with. Some aspies are very reluctant to obey conventional standards unless we also feel them to be moral.

What you're reading as 'violent behaviour' is probably either defensive, or else is a result of trauma arising from your previous treatment of her. If you have approached her through her life with a disciplinary frame, by the age of 14 you are not just dealing with aspie problems, you're dealing with all the effects of the fact that your frame is inappropriate for an aspie. Do not be surprised if she has PTSD, GAD, mood problems, self-loathing, resistance to anything you propose... this is all an effect of the inappropriate frame. In any case, to her, fighting off what is experienced as an assault would not seem to be violence, it would seem to be self-defence. Banging doors, shouting and the like when in meltdown are effects of a person's sensory state being disrupted – they aren't necessarily aggressive at all. You're reading NT intent into an aspie.

Nothing she does is about her trying to “rule the roost”. You are violently misinterpreting primal, sensory responses in your own NT, status-driven terms. Nothing an aspie does – unless they've been taught to do it in social skills training – comes from seeking status or power. We do things in horizontal ways: if we feel under attack, we will either retaliate, internalise it as self-loathing, or try to escape.

It is very unlikely that anything she does with you, when she isn't with her friends, is 'trying to fit in'. Aspies don't have that kind of social awareness or concern. If it happens when you're alone with her, it's directed at you, not them.

It is not about “knowing when to act differently”. It is not about “missing the point” about rules and the like. It's a different kind of brain functioning. The idea of responding to social norms just doesn't make sense to some aspies. Either something is wrong in principle, in which case you don't do it come hell or high water, or it's just a conventional norm in which case there is no good reason not to break it.

In addition, our sense of self is completely different. Some aspies will find it hard to distinguish punishment for an action from hatred of them as a person. We take rejection and punishment very harshly, as a personal slight. It might not affect how we act, but it will affect how we feel towards parents and the like. If your daughter is showing you anger and hatred, this is why.

Another problem: a lot of things which arise from Asperger's are not intentional. Since they're not intentional, they can't on principle be deterred (think of someone telling you, “don't sweat for an hour or we'll punish you”). Meltdowns are one of these. Meltdowns normally come from sensory overload, during which emotional processing breaks down. Do a search on this side for 'Question about your experience sensory overload' and search google for 'Meltdowns what they are and why theyre your fault'. Meltdowns are not other-regarding at all, and are outside conscious control. In fact they are extremely traumatic to experience. If you want to know what it's like, there's plenty of videos and articles online. It is also probably the case that meltdowns cause intense suffering to your daughter, and that she is frightened by the loss of control. Instead of calming her, you are traumatising her further.

There is no point punishing for meltdowns. Your attempts to do this escalate situations. Once someone is in meltdown, there's nothing that can be done but try to minimise the damage it causes, which means adopting a calming approach. This said, it's not

Some aspies will learn to control meltdowns to some degree, either by catching them and withdrawing before they happen, or by steering clear of stress-triggers. Your daughter will need your help in learning to do this, if she can. You also need to learn to catch meltdowns before they happen by watching for warning signs: irritability, delayed response, increased clumsiness, apparent sensory problems, raised or lowered voice... When you see the signs, get her OUT of the situation or reduce stimuli which may be causing it. Be very careful not to escalate.

Other things can be unintentional too. You probably don't know which of the things she does is intentional and which are things she can't control. A lot of the other things you're demanding may or may not be controllable, depending on your child's specific sensory needs. Many aspies have trouble sleeping. It's unreasonable to expect her to be asleep at times you set. It's unreasonable to expect she won't come downstairs to eat if she's hungry (if she is sensory-defensive to hunger, it is painful not to eat, and she will be unable to sleep if she doesn't). She might not be able to control timekeeping. If you don't have a clock in the bathroom, she will not know what time it is when she's in there. If she's on the computer or absorbed in something else (not only fun stuff, also things like homework), she might well be unaware of how long it takes. She is likely to be unable to stick to “tidy” in your sense, because things seem to have order to her when they don't to you. She may only have the most rudimentary idea of what you mean. You will almost certainly never get her to conform to your view of 'being respectful', because that would require a high level of social awareness; there are 40-year-old aspies in good jobs who still make those kinds of mistakes. I don't know if any or all of these apply to your daughter, but if these are recurring issues and she's resistant to your demands, it is quite likely they do.

Your punishments might also be a lot harsher than you intend. Things which to you seem like privileges, can be basic needs to an aspie. OF COURSE if you take away her laptop she will meltdown. Quite possibly this is something she needs to regulate her own emotional state. Think of it as being like, somebody takes away your toilet, and you have to go three days without peeing. That's what it's probably like to her. Frankly you are lucky she does not retaliate by taking or breaking something of yours, that's what I would have done as a child if my parents had done this. And especially to do this when you know she will be coming back close to meltdown is unconscionably cruel. It astounds me how NT people can do things like this and accuse aspies of being rigid. This is absurdly rigid on your part. It suggests that you care more about your daughter's conformity than her welfare.

If she is showing what you call “hate and anger” - which is not always any such thing, it could be an effect of meltdowns, though it sounds to me like there's more than this going on – you should look at the immediate cause. You adopt an authoritarian, disciplinary attitude with her. This produces anger in some aspies (and some NT's too). Some aspies are very horizontal and reciprocal: they don't see any good reason why you should have more power than them, or why they should obey rules which don't make sense to them. This is not 'boundary-testing' or a battle of wills, it's somewhere inbetween moral righteousness and incomprehension of your actions. Because you're reacting through this frame, it's exacerbating problems. She is angry with you because you are hurting her. You are probably hurting her a lot more than you realise, because you can't see from inside her point of view as the distance between you and her is too great. The desire to fit in with a peer-group on the part of teenagers is often a result of hurt from the family setting being mapped out onto a desire for an alternative group to belong to.

You should not be calling police or paramedics over meltdowns and refusals to comply. This would be considered unacceptably heavy-handed anywhere in the world except America. There's two points here.

Firstly, autistic meltdowns are not normally dangerous, as long as they aren't escalated. If you're facing dangerous situations, most likely you're escalating. For example, many autistic people are tactile-defensive. This means that if you touch them, it's like it hurts, or like shining a bright light in your eyes. If you physically assault or 'restrain' a tactile-defensive person who is having a meltdown, they will physically fight back. If you use physical force against someone in a meltdown, do not be surprised if you get hurt.

Secondly, getting agencies involved with an autistic person when these agencies are unlikely to know how to deal with autism is like throwing your daughter into the river and hoping she comes out alive. It's a matter of fact that the police have killed and tortured autistic people. If this happens to your daughter because you called the police, it's your fault. You are playing with fire, putting her at risk. You are also stretching the resources of an agency which has murderers and rapists to catch. There is no such thing as “the consequences must be faced”. YOU are the one creating the consequences for her. Your own moral rigidity is preventing you from seeing the harm you're causing.

You need to learn de-escalation and conflict transformation skills to use in these situations. If your daughter's going into overload, do not shout at her, do not physically assault her, do not threaten her. Try to calm her: reduce sensory input, introduce relaxing sensory stimuli which work for her, try to persuade her to sit down or leave the situation. If left to its own devices, a meltdown will burn out in half an hour at most.

What you also need to do is to start talking to her about what she finds difficult, what puts her into meltdown and why, what things she's sensory-defensive to, and also how she feels about you and why she is angry with you. This will lead to hard truths for you, and you'll have to swallow your pride in your belief that you're indulgent or fair.

So if we summarise what I speculate to be your daughter's experience:
1) she is suffering sensory onslaughts which are deeply painful for her, causing meltdowns
2) you are responding to these meltdowns in a disciplinary way, which will feel to her, on an unconscious level, like she's under attack as a person for something she can't help
3) you take away items she may need for her emotional stability, which in turn causes further meltdowns
4) you are giving her rules she may not be able to stick to consistently, with threats of punishments which will seem extreme to her
5) when she is suffering (in meltdown), you are making things worse instead of better
6) you are then surprised that she is angry, 'hateful', and unresponsive to your demands, requests and explanations.

I'm sure you haven't meant any of this, but what you've done is to have produced a very disturbed young woman, whose underlying problems from being an aspie in an NT world are compounded by traumatic sources of additional suffering. Even though there is no intent to abuse on your part, and your actions might not have any traumatic effect on an NT child, the effect on an aspie child will be akin to that of being systematically abused: consider a child who was banned from peeing for a week, and when they peed, was beaten, handcuffed by police, and then denied food for a week – this is what the experience will be like for her on a subjective level. Quite probably you are double-binding her as well, encouraging her to socialise and to join in with the group, and then losing your cool when she does this and acts 'disrespectfully' (remember that an aspie is not capable of respect and disrespect in your sense, and might well be doing things her friends tell her without any idea why you'd object). You treat her in a way she can only interpret as loathing (punishing her for things she can't help), then complain that she's developed self-loathing. It's a vicious circle and it needs breaking.

To get beyond this, you need to get out of the authoritarian frame. You need to realise that this frame doesn't help her. You need to realise that you are not doing these things to “help” her, you are doing this because you've inculcated an inappropriate disciplinary frame, and in doing so, you're acting out your own narrative with her, insisting she act like you and obey your rules, interpreting what she does as if it were a NT action. Frankly you might as well be treating her as if she was a dog or a brick. She is not a NT person and you cannot act as if she is. You need to realise that her own perspective is very different from yours and needs to be respected, not violated. You will not be able to help her heal if she cannot trust you because of the violence you've (inadvertently) done to her. My own relationship to my parents was only healed when it got to the point where I realised they didn't know the damage they were doing, that they didn't 'mean it' the way I took it; and this only came many years after they had to give up trying to discipline me. Perhaps you need to explain to her that you did these things without realising how much they hurt her, to own up to having inadvertently caused her great suffering. But to be able to do that, you need to get to the point yourself where you can say sorry for what you've done. This will mean healing yourself, as well as your daughter. I'd also advise looking into alternative philosophies embodied by groups such as Taking Children Seriously, the Natural Child Project and the Summerhill philosophy, to help you work your way out of the inappropriate frame you've got your head into. You should also look into possible sensory responses to stress: look at the idea of creating a sensory room, at whether there are types of stimming she has abandoned (perhaps with your encouragement) and could revive, at sensory-based therapies for anxiety and related problems: I have these problems myself, and personally, can vouch for brushing, aromatherapy, lights, kundalini and (tentatively) reiki, though what works will vary with specific sensory dispositions and their intensities. In any case, your frame needs turning upside down: she is a person with difficult needs which need meeting, not a person with behaviour problems which need controlling.

Aspie1968: I am in awe of your brilliance, insightfulness and willingness to take the time and effort to help "cloudy" or any parent understand what an Aspie may be experiencing. Not only that, you made some very useful suggestions for repairing and developing better parent-child relationships. As a parent, I could have benefitted greatly from your words when my son (now 40) was a teenager! For now, however, I'll save your essay to forward to my family, when our next generation grants us another AS child. I am grateful to you.

"First you have a difficult child and then you have a monster and then you consider Aspergers."

OUCH. Really? I hope you're not saying children with Asperger's are monsters.

It is another way of saying that your vision is distorted and has a bias. These days many ASSUME, at least in the US, that if a white doesn't like a black that they are RACIST, and it is because of their races. That often is NOT the case. Being an "educator", you are subjected to that kind of thinking ALL OVER, at least in the US.

Unmarked metaphors - I have a feeling she meant "first you THINK you have a difficult child, then you THINK your child is a monster, then you THINK/LEARN your child has Asperger's (and not a monster)". Unfortunately, in certain types of frame, we do seem like monsters, because people using these frames are deploying assumptions about motives we don't have, i.e. aspie + false assumptions = illusory monster. And from an authoritarian frame, anything which can't be socialised / made to fit properly can seem monstrous. Actually, if someone was deliberately doing the things some of us do in meltdown, on a regular basis and for no good reason, they'd seem rather nasty to aspies too (unless we thought it was meltdown...), so it's not hard to see how the mistake is made.

aspie1968
This is getting off the OP's original topic but after reading your very insightful post I have to ask, how did you come to see the world so clearly? There were a few very minor points in your post I would debate but overall you exhibit such a firm grasp of perspective from both sides of the neurologic aisle! As much as I read about autism and read posts here from people with Asperger's and autism, I fear that I will still never really understand my DS's perspective. That fear isn't going to stop me from trying. Maybe you could share with us a little of how you came to have such an in-depth understanding of "self" and of "others"?

Not wanting to stray too far off-topic, but the short version of the answer would be, lots of reading in the social sciences, training in critical literacy, some study of interpretive methods (ethnographic, psychoanalytic, discursive, etc), and a very diverse circle of friends. I suspect the main 'switch' in going this way is unlearning the habit of assuming a common experiential reference-point for language and of reading others' actions by analogy or comparison to one's own (which I think people both sides of the 'divide' are prone to do, though it has different effects in each case, and which I had to learn my way out of). Instead I try to deduce backwards from an action or statement, cross-read it with other things I know about the person's perspective to make an informed guess about the assumptions informing it, and if necessary ask the question, what other assumptions need to be added for this conclusion to make sense? This gives the contours of an informed guess from which better analogies can be drawn. This involves viewing communication as translation (always comparing two different perspectives), rather than by analogy to one's own thought-processes and sensory input. The guesses remain very approximate, especially if they're not corrected by dialogue. I guess it could be a long-term effect of using intellectual processing as a functional substitute for empathy. If you like, start another thread and I'll give a more detailed response.

Aspie 1968 I also found what you said incredibly helpful. Having just had a weekend of extreme difficulty with MY daughter (who spent 99% of the weekend in her room with curtains drawn, light on and in bed reading, while I tried to get her to come out a bit and DO something, and we had fight after fight after fight, it felt so toxic and draining, she hurt me badly by telling me I had "messed her up". And it hurt because I fear it is true, that I have done so when I realise how much I have applied nt standards to her, authoritarian viewpoint etc, and yet behind it all is the fact that I love her and want whats best for her. (which I realise is not whats REALLY best for her. ) It so so hard to understand each others perspective, but posts like yours do shed light on the whole thing, I just wish I could sustain this feeling of clarity, and not slip back into my old nt ways of dealing with her.

Curtains drawn and in bed reading sounds to me like the sort of thing I'd do if I was on the verge of sensory overload and trying to keep stimuli down. Usually when I'm in these states, I just want to be left alone, and someone trying to cheer me up and get me active is the last thing I need, it's extra stimulus and pressure to interact. But I also sympathise with how you feel, and I suspect your reaction is exactly what a depressed person would need. Since she's on the edge of overload she probably only half-means what she says as well, as she might only be seeing the negative in the relationship because of state-dependent emotional memories. Also, remember that it works both ways, aspies hurt NT's without meaning to as well, and your daughter won't realise where the things you've done are coming from. Try to explain to her that you didn't mean things the way she took it, and to explain as best you can how your own frame works and the ways you might misinterpret her, so one of you can catch it quickly if you do. Try to explain to her why you made the assumptions you did, why they seemed reasonable assumptions to you (even though they turned out to be wrong), and why the pain she's experienced wasn't deliberate and intentional. Remember that she might also be mapping onto you her own assumptions of what people will know and how they will react - she's assessing you as if you were an aspie who did the things you did, which would make you, in her mind, a very malicious aspie so to speak. She might be reading the things you've done as deliberately producing the effects they have, that you set out to do these things from enmity or hostility, which I'm sure is not true, but is perhaps the only reason *she* would have done the things you've done (which is also very confusing, because the love will be obvious too, so it might feel to her that you love and hate her at the same time). And also the other way round: encourage her to see you as not like her, as possibly having needs she doesn't have, and as affected by things she might not understand. In my case I actually figured out myself, after I started looking into sensory overload, that people around me didn't realise the effects of the things they'd done - my parents were literally astonished to the point of laughter when I explained the way I'd understood some things (I'd just been assuming they knew from sensory experience). I'm sure my life would have been less painful if I'd figured this out earlier.

Yes that's interesting and does make sense. She has from time to time said "you really hate me don't you? ", to which I always reply "no, I actually really love you, "she'll then sometimes be silent or tell me to get real . It would be great to be able to talk these things things through, ie "I did this because I thought that, and assumed you would react like this, or whatever, but my daughter just wont chat or speak particularly rationally to me, (she does to her teacher, so she is able to) it's all "go away; whatever; leave me alone, get out my room, what do you want , I'm not interested, go awaaaaaaaay, (she's 12 so in one way thats unsuprising) . But still, perhaps as she gets older, this might be a possibility. And I'm still very encouraged by what you've said, in that its like joining the dots and discovering the picture. So thanks, I will read your future posts with great interest.

Hmm, that reminds me of 12-year-olds I know, actually! But I'd say, try again when older, or when she gives you an opening the opening will come quicker the more accurately you guess her problems in the meantime.

Not sure if that will end up backfiring on you or not but it may. I know with my own Asperger's and trouble making friends, often in desperation to have friends, Ive hung about very wrong kinds and its not a situation I end up getting myself out of as Im still desperate to have friends and sometimes it feels like any kind of friends can be better then none. It all depends on how lonely she is but the friendship may be very damaging to her with her trying to hold onto it no matter what they do.

Its always myself who has ended up in trouble with the law when Im actually being abused by the wrong kind of friends. Its like one has no value when one has no friends at all.. and it dents ones confidence even further.

"and that its ok to not fit in. "

At 40 years old, Im still unhappy about not being able to fit in with NTs, I still try and fail. She may never learn that. She may need you to be protective of her when it comes to friends eg I think it is good you said those disrespectful ones cant come to the home again.

I hope she's on some antidepressents for her depression and is seeing a counsellor for it. Some kind of trusted counsellor is I think necessarily for helping teach life skills when one has Aspergers. It helps to be able to go to someone when one has an issue and get ideas on how to deal with things, (things NTs seem to naturally think of but they just dont come to my head).

When I was about 14, on a crowded train compartment, I caught sight of a black lady on the far side and announced to my dad, "I'm definitely glad I'm not black." He looked at me and said, "I think we'll have a talk about this when we get home. For now, just...don't say anything else!" and shushed me when I kept going on about it. Don't think it was racist, just v. inappropriate and embarrassing for my dad and the lady. I didn't really have the awareness at the time. Your daughter probably doesn't either.

It's weird I said that because when I was little I wanted to have black skin. Because of Whoopie Goldberg.