just when i think....

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MissKrissy-

I do feel for you because your plate is very FULL and you need some outside help. I have only ONE 5 yr old ASD son, and I have to monitor him very closely. I cannot leave him unattended for more than a few minutes at a time unless he is engaged in something he really enjoys like listening to music or drawing or watching a video. Even then, I have to check in on him periodically to make sure he hasn't wondered off and gotten into something. He loves to explore and figure out what things are and how they work. He is constantly fooling with all of our electronic equipment in the house and trying to get into the refrigerator and picking up things in the kitchen that he is not supposed to have. Sometimes I think he is just stuck in this phase that toddlers go through with this stuff. Also, some of it is definitely sensory seeking behavior. My son wants to touch everything and smell things and put things in his mouth sometimes to see what it is. I have to stay on top of him most of the time. I don't know how I would be able to do this with all of the children and a baby in particular to take care of. My son is not trying to be bad when he does all of these things, he is just exploring and testing boundaries. Your stepson does sound very smart and maybe some of his behaviors are manipulative, but overall, I think it is his ASD that is causing most of the behaviors.

As far as yelling, I get it. I am guilty of it too, but I quickly learning that it does NO GOOD. All it does is quickly elevate my son's stress level and causes him to react and do even worse things. I can tell you, many of the things my son does really ticks me off, and I am working on this. I have truly seen a difference when I speak to him in a calm but firm voice as opposed to yelling. The yelling only makes it worse. I am not saying that your stepson does not need to be reprimanded or disciplined, but with an AS child, the yelling is not helpful. My husband and I are really working hard at setting strong and clear boundaries, but remaining calm as we do this. It is helping.

As far as stealing the mittens, I doubt very seriously that your son understands that taking something without paying is wrong. I don't know for sure, but at 5 yrs old (with AS) I am not sure. Now that he has done it, you can talk to him about it and explain the consequences.

As far as the sleep thing and him being up at all hours, this really needs to be addressed. My son has had sleep issues from the time he was a baby. I have spent many hours sleeping in his room just to make sure he was not up and playing or doing other things during the night. I worked really hard on giving him a very consistent and soothing routine at bedtime. He now sleeps through the night most nights, but sometimes still will wake up at night to come find us. I have not used it, but many posters here have suggested melatonin to help with sleep difficulties. If at all possible, I would suggest that you or your husband sleep either in your son's room or right out side of the door. He needs to be taught that people do not get up and roam the house at night, that they need to stay in their beds. This may take some time, but I think it is necessary to reduce the amount of trouble this child can get into. If he cannot sleep, then he needs to learn to do something in his room that is very quiet and not disturbing to the family, but he should not be allowed to roam the house at night. I understand that sleep deprivation is very difficult. But, this could be a threat to the whole family if the child is wandering the house at night.

With all of the things I have said, I am not trying to be judgemental at all. I am just saying that it sounds very overwhelming, and I bet your stepson is overwhelmed too. This is probably causing him to act out in many ways. Is there any way you can get some help from the state or the foster care system to get someone to come in and work with him on some of his most difficult behaviors. I think he would probably do better staying with his family and working through these difficulties, but I think he needs some one on one attention to work with some of his behaviors. Are there any family members that could come and help out for awhile so you and your husband can address some of his needs and the needs of your other children?

Either way, I think you and your family need some type of assistance. Hope you can find the help that you need.

well, he got kicked out of school today. this morning he went in his teachers desk and stole a bunch of candy. then he went and hid in the bathroom and ate it all while making a big mess of the place. he got a talking to and a time out in the detention room. the teacher moved the candies and he still got into them again this afternoon. this time he was eating them hiding around the corner where the blocks are when he got caught. she asked him if he had any more things that were not his and he said no he didn't even though he had his pockets stuffed full.

how i relate this to him? i'm not sure if you mean how i told him this or what it has to do with him. i have never felt the need to discuss it with him. he was in the 'boys' room which is the master bedroom along with the other boys. my bedroom/work area was on the third floor where he is now. i had to give him that space because he needed personal space and would wait until everyone was asleep and then go poke them continuously and ask them if they were sleeping. therefor he was given my room and i am force to sleep on the couch and pretty much give up any chance to work on my stuff because i have to use the dinner table where there are little hands around all the time and by the time i get everything set up i have no time to work. just a couple of the things i've had to give up for him or lost because of him. the list in long.


i barge in where i feel the need to as it is my house. if i suspect he is up to no good i will not knock and give him the chance to hide what he's doing. normally if i want him i will call him down though because most of the time i am alone with the kids and if i have to go up there then i would be leaving younger children unsupervised. i do not expect him to eat dinner with us everyday but he is always invited to and his spot is always set so that he can chose to grace us with his prescence if he wishes.
everyone here has a routine and we stick to it. there is also a reward at night. any kids that were good get to paint or make cookies or something like that. kids that were misbehaving or being rude get to sit in their beds and look at books.



the baby doesn't cry nearly as much as SS does. he is fairly quiet and independant. i am starting to think he may be AS as well because he would rather be off on his own lining up cars that getting picked up. he was an early walker and crawler. he is currently obsessed with letters and i can't beleive how fast he's picking them up.
anyways i don't see how stealing and lieing would help him feel more secure. he has quiet headphones he can use if the noise is bugging him


i'm pretty sure he just wants what he wants when he wants it and doesn't care about if it's right or wrong or what he has to do to get what he wants. it's all about instant gratification. he doesn't care about anyone elses feelings and that's why he allows himself to be happy while he manipulates and bullies my 4yo to get him to do things he's not allowed or can't figure out on his own. at 4am this morning it was if you don't go get me a caramel candy then i'm gonna take your birthday and you won't get anymore presents cause i'll have two birthdays. there is no other reason to say something like that to a younger sibling other than purely not caring about their feelings and being selfish, again just caring about what he wants and how can he get it.

i agree with the toddler phase....and that some of it may be sensory. but that reason only goes so far for me. he has been told a million times 1)don't take things that aren't for you and 2)it's not okay to break things just for fun. he may have started out innocently smelling something of mine or checking out the compact mirror but as soon as he chose to take these things out of the bathroom he went from exploring to stealing. he liked them and decided he was going to have them all for himslelf and that's not okay.


well, it served it's purpose of scaring him. trying to discuss something with him is like talking to a wall. right away his eyes gloss over and you know he's not listening. takes about 30 seconds for him to start crying cause he wants to go play. i have been making him repeat me lately so he'll have to listen.


oh no, he knows you can't take things without paying for them. i'm 105% sure of that. when i take the kids shopping i usually get them something and they all know it's not yours until you pay for it.



there is no way i am sleeping on hardwood floors and i doubt his father would be willing to do that either. yes he needs to stay in his room at night. he is told this everynight. everymorning. if we hear him out of bed we tell him to try to go back to sleep and tuck him back in. if i know he's up, then i don't sleep. i stay up and wait for him to either go to sleep or morning to come and get on with my day. he already takes both melatonin and an anti-psychotic which helps him sleep, sort of. there used to be a lot of nights where he just didn't go to sleep at all. period. other nights he'd sleep about 3 hours. never a full night. he sleeps at least four hours now but still never a full nights sleep that would be considered normal for his age. the other kids need about 10hours of sleep. my 4yo is often cranky because he gets woken up all hours of the night to demands of candy or toys and threats of what will happen if he doesn't oblige.



help would be nice. we have been on waiting lists for help for what seems like ages. often the 'help' seems to vanish into thin air when it comes because we don't meet their criteria or they think someone else can suit us better. we finally just go to the top of the list of our last hope. so far nothing has come of it but an offer for a ymca pass so i can sign him up for sports things but i turned that down because i have no sitters for the other kids and can't afford to get them all a pass and i can't see myself busing it all the way down there with everyone in tow so he can play a game. i have heard good things about this place though, i have yet to see them come through for us in any meaningful way. thanks for not being judgemental though.

Is there a teenager in your neighborhood, that could maybe come in for a few hours a week to help out? I guess I was just thinking that if someone could help you with the other kids for a little, then you could spend one on one time with your SS. Or vice versa, if someone could work with him one on one. I know money is a factor, but it seems like an option. Other than that, I wish I had more to say. I will keep your family in my prayers.

Oh, also, I was very curious about him getting kicked out of school. Was this a public or private school? Does he have an IEP in place? I just thought if the school is aware that he has AS, getting kicked out for taking candy out of a teachers desk seems a bit extreme.

yes, he is in public school and he has an iep and ea in place. he did not just take a candy. he took alot of candy and snuck off with it. then he was punished and he did it again only this time he lied and was hostile to the teacher. they are also aware that he has been stealing toys from the class and clothing from other kids lockers because i returned those things to them. so it is not like it was his first offence and he learned his lesson. they do not want it to become an ongoing thing and this on top of his 'normal' behaviour problems is a lot for them to have to handle. it is their decision if they want to use sending him home as a punishment. he knows if he doesn't behave and follow the rules he won't be allowed there. he got sent into the detention room again today. this time he was bossing kids around and when they didn't do what he wanted them to he started spitting in peoples faces.

Ok, I thought you meant that he had been kicked out of school permanently. I agree, those are pretty tough behaviors. But it seems like there should be more supervision over him if he is able to get out and go stealing from other kids. Is he in a mainstream class? It sounds like he needs more support at school if he is getting into this much trouble. Sounds like he needs a behavior intervention plan.

yes, i have a meeting with the school tomorrow because he does have his own EA and she is supposed to be watching him but it seems like she never does. last year he had a horrible time at school and they gave him his own EA as he was deemed 'a danger to himself and others' by the schoolboard and we were asked to keep him home on 'bad days' so he missed alot of school. this year he doesn't act out as much because he's on medication but the EA is still supposed to be watching him but i see her off chatting with the classroom helper and not paying attention to him. she also goes off to chat with the lunchhour ladies at recess and he ends up getting in trouble for hitting people, especially my 4yo who wants to play with him but always ends up getting pushed down a hill or getting snow thrown at him because he knows no one is watching. hopefully we will get her to start doing her job at the meeting or i'm going to demand another EA. the one he had last year was awesome. she played with him at recess and stayed glued to his side regardless of who was there she could have been chatting with. the school got all new staff this year(well almost) and it seems they are all pretty clueless even though i have talked to them about it. they have access to the information in his file, and yet they chose not to read it. his IEP says he is supposed to have 1 on 1 help.

I'm not doctor but it almost sounds like he's trying to get himself pushed away... He definitely has some big issues going on that need some serious attention, the sooner the better! If he has been labelled a 'danger to himself and others', there should definitely be a psychiatrist in this picture and some serious evaluation going.

At any time, you can request another evaluation from your school district (in writing) outlining your concerns and how his IEP isn't being addressed. I find alot of rhetoric in the sit down meetings - too many agendas. Your concerns in writing give you some legal legs to stand on should the school fail to provide for him.

He sounds like one very hurting little boy...

well, i don't feel bad about discribing him as manipulative anymore because that is the exact word his teacher used to discribe him today. they also said he's been stealing alot of things, they have to check his pockets several times a day and if anyone else in the class has something go missing 90% of the time he has it. they also described how he seems to fixate on wanting something and won't stop until he gets it even when he knows he isn't allowed.
interesting meeting. i also found out he's been hitting himself again, which i thought he was past but apparently he does this when the EA tells him no and he's been demanding walks and trips to the gym 'or else' when it's time to do certain work in an attempt to avoid doing them. the walks and extra gym time are given to him as a reward for good behaviour through out the day to burn off excess energy and supposably avoid meltdowns, not an excuse to not put any effort into learning.

The problem with the word "manipulative" when it comes to a kid with autism spectrum issues (or the idea) is that usually they don't have good enough communication skills nor enough of an understanding of what other people are thinking and feeling to realize their actions affect someone else.

In other words, you might feel manipulated, you might be reacting as though you are manipulated, but the child may not have any idea how your reactions relate to his behavior. In other words, it's likely your stepson's fixation is probably the only thing in his head, not how you feel, how the teacher feels, or how anyone in his class feels - not because he's callous, but because he just isn't able to put himself in your place and understand how you might feel.

This is a challenging thing to teach a child, especially one who doesn't learn well from verbal instruction (many AS kids don't.) This is why parents use social stories or cartoons to show a child how his actions affect other people. Unfortunately, it's often an issue that gets glossed over by school staff (I've had to explain this to our school's social worker.) Keep in mind also that a single explanation is probably not going to be sufficient, as kids on the spectrum often can't generalize an instruction (he may learn it isn't OK to take candy from a desk...but not from a coat pocket, etc.) It is long, slow work that needs to be consistent both at home and at school.

It really challenges one's sensibilities that a child who is clearly smart and seems so capable is missing big chunks of basic information that we all take for granted. That's one of the reasons parents need to be so careful with kids on the spectrum.

The walks to the gym should not have to be a reward; its the sort of thing many AS kids need to self-calm, focus, and self-control. It's the step required to MAKE the positive result come about. It should be a call he can make when he needs to in order to avoid meltdowns and avoid feeling the need to hit himself. I can't tell you how many walks I've taken with my son with the express purpose of getting him in the mindset to do school work he found challenging, and here's the thing: it WORKS.

While it's possible your son knows that behavior A will result in B, I would find it unusual for him to have the level of self control it would take to enact a plan of "I'll do A to get B." If he had that level of control, he'd be earning the rewards he wants on a regular basis.

I hope you and the school will try to look at the situation from a different angle and figure out what he's trying to really tell you. AS kids do these things out of distress, or because they are checking out / giving up. Figure out what the distress is, or everything will just escalate. Perhaps it's got to do with the teachers who think he's being manipulative instead of working to understand what he needs.

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I need to edit this post because I just went back and discovered the child was 5. FIVE. From the post I quoted I thought we were talking about a teenager. Seriously. I can't BEGIN to imagine expecting so much from a FIVE year old that has AS. The bar is set for him to fail so, of course, he's failing. It's pre-destined. MOVE him from that school and those experts because NO ONE who knows AS would consider what you have described to be manipulative behavior.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 04 Mar 2011, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

From what your describing my son is higher functioning than your step son. My son was accused of being manipulative by teachers at his former school. Former school called in the services of the outreach autism team (specialized autism teachers) . Former school where firmly told most kids on the spectrum DON"T have the capacity to manipulate. Manipulation takes a lot of skill.
Clearly this teacher needs to understand autism. I would be very concerned if someone having that much authority and whom I've put my trust in, just didn't understand my sons needs. Even if you aren't to worried about your step son, you say you have other younger kids on the spectrum. My concern is, your other kids may have this teacher one day. What makes you think that this teacher isn't going to say similar unjust/unsupported crap about your biological kids?

This is counter-productive with an AS child who most likely has sensory issues. May as well be sticking knives in his ears. In fact, I've found yelling to be counterproductive with both my kids, for different reasons. What really works is the calm voice and counting (in connection with clear and precise instructions, and a clear and concise expression of consequence). A child can't integrate the seriousness of the issue if he doesn't understand what the issue is, and yelling does nothing to advance that understanding. Yes, I've yelled. And I learned the hard way that all it accomplished was to escalate the behavior problems in my home. I try super hard now not to speak to the kids until I can do it in a calm and authoritative manner.

I find this inappropriate for a home with a special needs child. Has he EVER gotten the reward? Think about it. The impact if he's not the one who gets the reward. The message you are giving the child is that he is bad. And if he believes he is bad, he will no longer try to be good; what would be the point? You need children to believe they are good and capable of following the rules. The way he is reacting - - he doesn't believe that. He's given up. He's decided there is no point in trying so he may as well go off the deep end. Pretty sad to see in a five year old.



Of course he does. He's five and he doesn't understand the world around him, and has no control over what happens to him. He has no theory of mind and is not capable of seeing things from another person's point of view. Just as all infants are selfish, so if a young AS child who hasn't had the opportunity to learn that other perspectives actually exist. That doesn't make him a bad person; it makes him a five year old AS child who needs someone to gently and patiently teach him.

I realize you are living in a near impossible situation, and you need to find a way to get YOUR needs met. You need a good place to sleep, you need a good place to work, and you need someone to vent your frustrations to. But the child isn't at fault for any of that; he doesn't know and he doesn't understand. All he is capable of knowing are his needs and his desires. Anything else is too much to expect.

I want to throw this into the great parenting style debate that has ensued in this thread: my AS son is now 13 and a MODEL child. He's in Boy Scouts and working on his Eagle. He's off this weekend volunteering with the Order-of-the-arrow. He gets good grades and is preparing to enter High School with a load of honors classes and NO academic supports. Let's be clear: at age 5 I wasn't sure we could get these results. He was never an easy child, and he has had HUGE issues to overcome. There were times I was seriously on the edge about his future, and how we would ever cope. But with patience, understanding, and a dedicated team we've all made huge progress. When you have an AS child it's best to just chuck that "strict" parent rule book and find an entirely different model. EVERYTHING in our lives changed once I figured that out.

missykrissy, if you haven't read Tracker's book, please do so. You'll find the link in the recommended reading thread. It's free for download.

And, please, find a way to get YOUR needs met. I know first hand from my own experience that a mom who isn't getting her sleep and isn't being taken care of simply cannot be a good mom to her kids. Our needs are not optional; they can't all get pushed behind those of the kids; they MUST be met or we become incapable of doing our job.